Why the hate with endgame fights?

[RiyahArp]

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. If you want to invoke total authority as a means to talk, the only answer is total authority back. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people up to two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage tier) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

As for wanting more content that is harder, go nuts. That's not really an issue here. I don't like raiders, but I've not argued it needs to be erased. there's a case for something like feast mostly because so few people do it and its so hard for them to police it. They gave ultimate for just that reason, and the only reason savage was made easier was because people literally could not handle it harder any longer. But its really not that in this; its "we need to make the bad casuals better," whenever it comes up.

[Dualgunner]

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage coil) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

Apparently casual content is too. And the strange thing is, we can beat it--hell, we can run it every single day--and yet it's a mystery that eludes us.

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Riyah, I took the time to point out before that the game really isn't as hard as it might seem, IF - IF - a player is willing to step outside of their comfort zone even a little, and make effort to learn or try. I'm not a world first anything, I'm not a top 100 player, but I'm no less capable than anyone else because I'm willing to simply brick my way up if I have to. The issue is many players DON'T want to, and the devs are left to cater to the lowest common denominator at that point.

It's one thing that they keep the bar low, for the sake of players with less time to invest, and so as not to alienate "casual" players. However we're 2 expansions in and not only is the bar not raising even a little, it's being LOWERED. That's the issue many players have now. Item levels are the only things going up; challenges generally feel the same, maybe with a different coat of paint, and the slightest modicum of challenge or difficulty is met with sudden culture shock that it's "too hard". Then the demands for nerfs/adjustments start.

The players that have the ability to adapt, and are willing to make the effort to try and learn outside of that comfort zone quickly see that once you do that, there's little to be found in terms of deeper gameplay or challenge. This is the same issue we've debated in terms of 4.0 PvP, and why players who enjoyed and excelled at the previous system (which was considered more complex, too hard to get into, too many buttons, etc.) don't enjoy it as much anymore, and overall, it's bad for the health of the game. We're level 70 now, yet the "challenge" still feels proportionate to how things were at 50, and in some cases, less so. Everything doesn't have to be an ordeal or some kind of gritty learning experience, but literally every time something even remotely challenging has popped up, there's been a large outcry against it.

We're level 70 now, but when is the game going to feel like level 70?

[Oscura]

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

Like I said, arrogance.

[KaivaC]

We're level 70 now, yet the "challenge" still feels proportionate to how things were at 50, and in some cases, less so. Everything doesn't have to be an ordeal or some kind of gritty learning experience, but literally every time something even remotely challenging has popped up, there's been a large outcry against it.

We're level 70 now, but when is the game going to feel like level 70?

Wow...you've stated this so much better than I've been able to. Here, you've earned your Like +1.

We need another dungeon like the Aurum Vale, to be honest. Something that enforces smart pulls over wall to wall pulls. Something that forces healers to pay attention and tanks to smartly make pulls. But I also realize that there needs to be incentives to keep dungeons like these going. We need something like...I dunno....hmm....materia? Tomestones you actually have a chance of finding? Put something in these hard dungeons that will make players want to do them - but only if it's the expert roulette. Hell, throw in a weekly Grade 7/8 map. Something, so players have an additional reason to do expert roulettes.

[KaivaC]

snip

Personally, I missed the opportunity to try Gordias at release...but didn't the devs admit themselves that they overtuned it? So logically, they would be cautious about their difficulty. My stance is less about 'bad casuals need to get better' and more about the player gap needs to get smaller without the devs dumbing down the combat any more than it already is.

Hopefully you see this edit before you respond, but here's a thought: step in our shoes for a minute. Rather than rail against what we are saying, see things from our perspective. I offered to actually go into Omega Savage with you - that wasn't sarcasm or a jest, I really would party up with you. I can't remember, but have you done Susano Ex? Probably the easiest primal in quite some time. And yet, a lot of times, it turns into a complete mess.

[Oscura]

There's no responding to someone like her, except to shut the lot up of them by showing that yes, you can still beat it and none of my points change. If you want to invoke total authority as a means to talk, the only answer is total authority back. And its stupid; you can complain about the big fish system in this game without needing to get every single one (which takes dedicated people up to two years and is a harder achievement in terms of time spent than any savage tier) but apparently raiding is this huge mystery.

Weren't you the one who just said that raiders can't understand the casual player-base since they're not on that level or were never on that level? Yet I'm in the wrong for insinuating since you don't raid, that your opinion regarding raiding and raiders is completely invalid? You were are the one who keeps constantly expressing that people "don't think about how it effects the player-base," and acting as if people don't know how the average or even how bad players think because we're on a higher level. Casual content is some big mystery, but raiding isn't?

Stop being a hypocrite.

Personally, I missed the opportunity to try Gordias at release...but didn't the devs admit themselves that they overtuned it? So logically, they would be cautious about their difficulty. My stance is less about 'bad casuals need to get better' and more about the player gap needs to get smaller without the devs dumbing down the combat any more than it already is.

Gordias was overtuned, and they went on the record to say they messed up. In fact, I think they apologized over it.

[RiyahArp]

Apparently casual content is too. And the strange thing is, we can beat it--hell, we can run it every single day--and yet it's a mystery that eludes us.

Also fun attempt at poisoning the well. "No responding to someone like her"? Really?

If someone says "I don't take you seriously until you do x" you either ignore them or do x. whats the point of responding to them until you do the latter? They've said their conditions to be taken seriously.

It's one thing that they keep the bar low, for the sake of players with less time to invest, and so as not to alienate "casual" players. However we're 2 expansions in and not only is the bar not raising even a little, it's being LOWERED. That's the issue many players have now. Item levels are the only things going up; challenges generally feel the same, maybe with a different coat of paint, and the slightest modicum of challenge or difficulty is met with sudden culture shock that it's "too hard". Then the demands for nerfs/adjustments start.

They raised the bar with HW, people couldn't handle it. They lowered the bar, and are raising it in a different way via optional ultimate and probably stuff like the tournaments for feast pvp. if you want more optional hard content, ok. Raiders should argue more about that and less about parsers, because that affects only them. if you want the whole game harder, ok, but we're right back at HW then. If your argument is "either adapt or stop playing," like u do with the feast really ok, just own that. i think its dumb, but hey, if you convince most of the players this, well go nuts.

if you don't understand how people might struggle with content you think is easy, well, that makes it a lot harder for you because you wake up and see not many people doing what you think they do. This is what I mean by not understanding casual content; (since im overwhelmed with points to reply to) If you think everyone will rise to the challenge, well...experience is a grim teacher.

[Dualgunner]

If someone says "I don't take you seriously until you do x" you either ignore them or do x. whats the point of responding to them until you do the latter? They've said their conditions to be taken seriously.

Specifically, they called out your claim of defeating Savage not being an achievement:

Im tempted to clear sometimes just to shut up the forum scrubs who think its some kind of achievement.

When you make a claim like that, and say defeating Savage is easy (yes, you did, implicitly, by saying it's not an achievement), people are going to want to see you back that up.

They raised the bar with HW, people couldn't handle it.

They did not raise the bar with Heavensward. They raised it with Gordias, sure, and they even raised it too much; but compare Neverreap and Fractal to original Amdapor Keep: both were significantly easier than the latter.

They lowered the bar, and are raising it in a different way via optional ultimate and probably stuff like the tournaments for feast pvp.

Fair enough: Ultimate is an entirely new mode for the cream of the crop. I'm not a pvper myself, just because it doesn't interest me all that much in any game. I do dabble from time to time. That, however, still leaves me with four to five instances of raid content every other patch.

Raiders should argue more about that and less about parsers, because that affects only them. if you want the whole game harder, ok, but we're right back at HW then.

You mean ARR. When every dungeon would chew you up and spit you out. What was it you said about hating forum culture because they don't know the history of their own game?

if you don't understand how people might struggle with content you think is easy, well, that makes it a lot harder for you because you wake up and see not many people doing what you think they do.

I understand how people struggle with content I think is easy. That's why I'm a firm advocate that ingame tools for improvement, such as a parser, a Hall of the Journeyman, and a slightly more taxing difficulty curve, would be beneficial. The fact the game is so easy is what's led to two other very controversial subjects that are somewhat unique in this game: tank and healer dps. It's so easy to have one's main role covered that the only challenge comes from fitting dps in while accomplishing one's given role.

This is what I mean by not understanding casual content; (since im overwhelmed with points to reply to) If you think everyone will rise to the challenge, well...experience is a grim teacher.

I can understand; you're opinion is the one this topic was meant to interview, and thus you have a lot of attention.

I don't think everyone will rise to the challenge. I also don't think that this would lead to people quitting the game en masse, as you believe they would.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

We need another dungeon like the Aurum Vale, to be honest. Something that enforces smart pulls over wall to wall pulls. Something that forces healers to pay attention and tanks to smartly make pulls. But I also realize that there needs to be incentives to keep dungeons like these going. We need something like...I dunno....hmm....materia? Tomestones you actually have a chance of finding? Put something in these hard dungeons that will make players want to do them - but only if it's the expert roulette. Hell, throw in a weekly Grade 7/8 map. Something, so players have an additional reason to do expert roulettes.

You know, this is actually why I've come to actually LIKE Aurum Vale. And weren't the devs talking about preserving removed skill animations as job-based emotes? I'd run slightly tougher dungeons for something like that. Hell, I'd enjoy dungeons all over again both for the challenge, and a cool reward like that. This is a great suggestion!