Just played Final Fantasy XI

[Clover_Blake]

Things like the awful EXP loss penalty on death that would even level you backwards if you were unlucky to die while being too close to the previous level still EXP wise (you lost 10% of the total exp needed for the next level when you died, raising gave some of that lost exp back), enemies being ridiculously dangerous even for minor trash mob wildlife like rabbits and yet giving minuscule EXP for it, having to party for everything and even then certain content pretty much restricting party make up to certain Jobs, airships running on tight schedules that all too often would result in players missing one by the skin of their teeth and then having to waste 10+ minutes of real time sitting doing nothing on the dock waiting for the next one, people abusing NIN as a subjob for Utsusemi thinking it made them invincible and then not accepting that it didn't (and thus leaving WHMs like me to have to raise them for their stupidity), no minimap, quest journal that was virtually useless and told you nothing about what you needed to do for a quest (thus forcing you to look online for the (often misleading, incomplete or inaccurate) information, important quests (even main scenario ones) that were locked behind invisible 'fame' counters for each city that forced you to do thousands of pointless fetch quests just to 'build up fame', need I go on?

All that sounds like old school MMORPG. There's a reason why I, back in the day, decided to quit MMORPGs for the time being after Ragnarok Online and Lineage II, and why I never bothered trying FFXI (and the very first FFXIV). I just couldn't (and can't) stand old school MMORPGs.

I guess people are seeing FFXI with rose-tinted glasses, as you well say, based on the nice memories they keep from those times. Maybe some people also appreciate being constantly punished with endless grind and penalties (???). I'm personally glad that kind of MMORPG is no longer the norm.

As a side note, I've been curious about FFXI, but only hoping that it had evolved into something more... modern. Or let's say playable.

[Skivvy]

All that sounds like old school MMORPG. There's a reason why I, back in the day, decided to quit MMORPGs for the time being after Ragnarok Online and Lineage II, and why I never bothered trying FFXI (and the very first FFXIV). I just couldn't (and can't) stand old school MMORPGs.

I guess people are seeing FFXI with rose-tinted glasses, as you well say, based on the nice memories they keep from those times. Maybe some people also appreciate being constantly punished with endless grind and penalties (???). I'm personally glad that kind of MMORPG is no longer the norm.

As a side note, I've been curious about FFXI, but only hoping that it had evolved into something more... modern. Or let's say playable.

It's not fair at all to claim that you dislike "old-school MMOs" with their grinds, and then brush everyone who speaks fondly of XI as simply having rose-tinted glasses. You have a strong bias, and it's quite dismissive of both the game and players.

[Clover_Blake]

It's not fair at all to claim that you dislike "old-school MMOs" with their grinds, and then brush everyone who speaks fondly of XI as simply having rose-tinted glasses. You have a strong bias, and it's quite dismissive of both the game and players.

The same bias as people who keep claiming that FFXI was "better" than FFXIV, or that FFXIV "should learn" from FFXI, merely based on their own good memories. And I don't see you complain about those.

[Skivvy]

The same bias as people who keep claiming that FFXI was "better" than FFXIV, or that FFXIV "should learn" from FFXI, merely based on their own good memories. And I don't see you complain about those.

Everyone is welcome to have an opinion. This is why I also posted:

I think this is an important thing to remember. It is an incredibly different game, and of course everyone has their own particular taste when it comes to games. It is also possible to enjoy both, and also find faults in both :X

You dislike grindy games, and you've never even played XI. That is perfectly fine.

What irks me is when people start dismissing other's opinions as them simply having rose-tinted glasses. It adds another level when it's coming from someone who has never even tried the game.

[Clover_Blake]

What irks me is when people start dismissing other's opinions as them simply having rose-tinted glasses. It adds another level when it's coming from someone who has never even tried the game.

Ironically, the rose-tinted glasses comment came from someone who happened to have played the game, who I was fully agreeing with. And I'm fully agreeing because, while I might not have played FFXI itself, I did play -or rather, suffered- other games that were the exact same level (Ragnarok Online and Lineage II). I have experienced the same things people are commenting in this thread about FFXI. I've always been very bitter about old school MMORPGs for all those reasons. So when I see people talking about how "superior" all those things were compared with the current system we have, I naturally will have something to say, and I believe that I have the same right as everyone else to state my opinion on the matter without anyone pulling the victim card on me, especially when the people who are being dismissive (as you call it) about the way FFXIV is only get a pat in the back from you.

[Skivvy]

Ironically, the rose-tinted glasses comment came from someone who happened to have played the game, who I was fully agreeing with. And I'm fully agreeing because, while I might not have played FFXI itself, I did play -or rather, suffered- other games that were the exact same level (Ragnarok Online and Lineage II). I have experienced the same things people are commenting in this thread about FFXI. I've always been very bitter about old school MMORPGs for all those reasons. So when I see people talking about how "superior" all those things were compared with the current system we have, I naturally will have something to say, and I believe that I have the same right as everyone else to state my opinion on the matter without anyone pulling the victim card on me, especially when the people who are being dismissive (as you call it) about the way FFXIV is only get a pat in the back from you.

There is a difference between saying "I dislike MMOs like XI due to <reasons>" and claiming that people must only like the game due to looking at it with rose-tinted glasses. One is giving your opinion, one is discrediting the opinion of others. It may be a fine difference, but it's there.

If someone says they think <random feature> from XI is loads better than XIV, sure, debate that. It's not hard to have a conversation with people of varying opinions without just shutting down their voice as invalid.

Also, who is pulling the victim card?

[Clover_Blake]

There is a difference between saying "I dislike MMOs like XI due to <reasons>" and claiming that people must only like the game due to looking at it with rose-tinted glasses. One is giving your opinion, one is discrediting and the opinion of others. It may be a fine difference, but it's there.

With comments like these all over the place:

Yes, FFXI is still a far better game.

You seem to be nitpicking here. Very sensitive and offended about the words from one side, yet oddly understanding and uncaring about the other's.

In any case, let's not derail from the matter. My comment was aimed at the comparison between the way both games are played. At the claim that FFXI is better or more entertaining than FFXIV/modern games in general, I say that FFXI -like most old school MMORPGs- has core systems that are not generally considered fun or rewarding (unless you simply enjoy the "challenge" of being constantly punished or having your time wasted), and I see quite a few old players in this thread that seem to agree. MMORPGs have evolved for a reason.