Just played Final Fantasy XI

[Naraku_Diabolos]

Unfortunately what stands out is the last day I played. I spent 3 hours waiting for a leveling party in Juno, (Jeuno?) mostly because I was an undesireable job/race combo of Galka Dark knight and when I finally got a party we wiped twice almost immediately to a caterpillar and someone training the NM in the area to us (mushushu I think). I de-leveled, and could no longer wear all of my AF and had to drop out. I stood there in my home city again.. thought long and hard about how much time I had essentially just wasted.. and quit. Never subbed again.

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

[Krotoan]

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

Trust NPC's didn't exist when I quit. It was party or nothing, when you found a good party you kept going till you actually hurt or were starving because god knew when you'd find a good party again. ..uphill.. in the snow... both ways =] I'm such a fogey. Oh well. It was fun when I got to adventure, but the leveling grind and absolute dependence on synergistic parties was not for me at the end.

[Mjollnir]

this sentiment, expressed without even the faintest shred of irony or self-awareness, is always truly incredible to see, like a fleeting glimpse of a rare majestic beast in the wilderness.

Treasure it. I am overcome with emotion

...just, probably not the emotion intended.

Haha you did a funny sarcasm! (I think that's what you were shooting for, right?) I'm objectively saying that 1.0 used better servers, better coding and had better graphics than XI. Also, that 1.0 had a fantastic storyline and was full of open-world mobs that were impossible to solo, so when exploring, you felt a sense of danger - it was a challenge to get to all of the aetheryte gates and get the associated achievement. Its flaws were many and thoroughly discussed elsewhere, but these were two of the positive things FFXIV lost when ARR was released. I'm not complaining (I've enjoyed most of my ARR-SB experience and know if it hadn't been redesigned it would not exist at all), just stating it for context in regards my perspective on the current position between the two games.

But if FFXIV does need to evolve, it most certainly does not need to evolve into FFXI.

I couldn't agree more. I've no desire to play the same thing twice. But just adding horizontal gear progression doesn't turn it into FFXI any more than having the five ARR races and three starting cities. Ideally, a monthly MSQ update and smattering of quests rather than having to wait four months and having it all done in two hours. There are many ways FFXIV should evolve - following this same formula is what I'm finding so dull.

Most of FFXI was not "dangerous."

I was referring to 1.0 with its overlevelled open-world mobs. Though in the pre-2010 FFXI, the danger was clear and present. Because XP took so long to get and was lost on death, you valued staying alive. Was it fun to lose XP? No. So you didn't. Play was cautious. You paid attention when Sneak/Invis was running out, desperately trying to find a break in the mobs to recast/reuse items. When the only place to do so was standing behind a 'Detect Sight' mob and you were hurriedly getting that recast in place before it turned around, the adrenaline was real. Battlefields weren't a matter of throwing yourselves at it until you won or committing a dance you'd watched on YouTube to memory, but about doing your research and then thinking on your feet and reacting, because you couldn't just click the 'try again' button.

It's true that the duty finder means you could ignore all other players, which in turn means that far more players can play the game. Making the game an exclusive club might be fun for the people in the club, but it's not a good financial strategy. It's not going to happen.

I agree that more people could play the game, and that was an absolute necessity after 1.0's failure. But you can't say "it's not going to happen", when this was exactly how all MMOs before 2011 did happen and for some it's still the reality. It could have been designed just that little bit better, to bond the community together, rather than damaging the opportunity to form those bonds.

Also not for nothing, but 1.0 failed because it was bad. And I loved 1.0. The original crafting system seemed to be designed specifically for my exact personality. But if a game only appeals to a small handful of players, it is a failure. And 1.0 was a failure. Also its story barely existed, so I'm not really sure what made it "great."

In a lot of places, it was bad. Mainly, in the important places (levelling, progression, combat, staying connected) that meant people wanted to play it! However, this was a AAA title from a huge publisher - there was an immense amount of good in there that is oft forgotten/overlooked or never experienced by people who didn't play the game/played it for a couple of sessions and threw it out. fwiw I agree with you on the crafting system (not sure anyone ever truly worked out what the different coloured lights meant and what you could do to influence them. Loved not having any clues as to recipe ingredients). I can't agree with you about the story barely existing. I don't know if Moose ever finished his detailed retrospective into 1.0's story, as I don't visit that site any more, but if he did, check it out and you'll see what I mean.

And as a reminder, if you don't have to do all that, then horizontal leveling is meaningless. Literally the only appeal it has is keeping old gear relevant.

Disagree. What you're not taking into account is depth. You're talking from a FFXIV PoV where you have one set of gear for a job. In FFXI, you can begin with one, but build up many different situational sets, whether they be for weaponskills, nuking, healing, or even just learning new Blue Magic, or skilling up. They can be tailored to different enemy-types that have elemental/slashing/piercing/bludgeoning/magic resistance/vulnerability. They can be tailored to different content types where your objective isn't just to kill as quickly a possible, but to proc weaknesses or rack up Treasure Hunter to increase the likelihood that you don't have to come back to try again for that Peacock Charm. It's not required, no, but it cuts down time elsewhere and you get to do a ton of different content to get them, not just accept a Tome handout.

I don't understand this. You don't want to continuously replay well-designed instanced dungeons and trials, but you're perfectly willing to grind exp, not to mention JP if you're actually doing any hard content, on 22 jobs? You know what I spend my time doing in FFXIV? I level up all 26 classes to max level, to experience the unique story that every single one of them has. (Actually there are 27 class/job storylines, thanks to Scholar.) FFXI's job-specific stories end with AF. The last 50 levels, and all of your job points, are a mindless grind with no content payoff. But that's less boring than having to run the same dungeons for four months at a time until you get brand new ones? I confess I can't understand that.

I don't know what you think is well-designed about the straight corridor that is every FFXIV dungeon. Once you've walked down it a couple of times, it's a completely forgettable experience, so much so that every time you're there it merges into one. And you're encouraged to roulette for tomes all week. Trials are fun whilst you can't do them, but again, once you've cleared it five times, you've cleared it a hundred times (which you're expected to do!).

FFXIV outshines FFXI on volume of content for job quests, sure. That's kind of specific though. FFXI outshines FFXIV on volume of content quests. They both have long and involved MSQs. The last 50 levels take two or three evenings at most and a some of that time is spent travelling to new locations. Job Points are the old XP parties of yore, but without the restrictions of only desiring certain jobs. You visit an open world location and choose your group's on camp, mobs and how long you want to play. Waiting 25min to run down a corridor for 20min with three random people who were silent and you'll never see again over and over is a real grind (levelling a DPS class via DF yesterday). Am I looking forward to taking the rest of my jobs up to 70? About as much as I was taking them up to 60 (crafters and gatherers aside, which I do enjoy, because levelling is completely different).

And once you have your job points? The content you've wanted to do, those pieces of gear you wanted to get, that you could do before, you can now do more quickly, with more survivability. You can challenge higher tiers for increased rewards. In FFXIV, you hit the iLv cap based on tomes availability/weekly drops and then what? Patiently wait to throw it all away in a couple of months' time. I can't understand *that*.

There are many, many more story quests with much, much more dialogue.

If you're talking about when I zone into a new hub and there are a dozen '!' for which I speak to each person who gives me some 'lore' about why I need to kill X number of Y or collect X number of Z... That's not lore, that's fluff.

Character development? FFXIV has been developing its main cast since 1.0, FFXI discards almost the entirety of the cast outside of your character between expansions, since they aren't connected and therefore they can make no assumptions about what you've done before.

I don't see this, aside from the players' single main companion girl for that xpac, and FFXIV has its share of xpac-only characters too. NPCs persisted from Vanilla to RoZ to CoP, ToAU was almost stand-alone tho ofc the main antagonist is there again, WotG is all the same characters (but younger), Abyssea is alt-universe versions and an old friend, Seekers uses a few Vanilla characters, and Rhapsodies literally involves everyone.

FFXIV is updated more frequently than FFXI ever was, and don't act like adding a few new fights and the 400th different currency compares to actual new assets and content.

FFXIV is not updated more frequently than FFXI ever was before ARR's launch. FFXI was quarterly, FFXIV is three per year. Sure, since 2015 there have been no new graphics assets, so old mobs and gear are recoloured and restatted, and old zones are re-designed and re-released for new content, but whilst subscriber numbers are so low, that's expected.

You confused me for a sec because when you said 'a few new fights and the 400th different currency', I thought you were talking about the next FFXIV patch...

It's not even particularly fair to compare FFXI now to FFXIV, because FFXI is only playable now because they've made it more like FFXIV. Trusts mean you can do all the content up to endgame solo. The ridiculous network of travel options make getting places easy. All the reward systems make it very easy to gear up at any level. This is nothing like what the FFXI experience actually was.

Not sure your point here. You're saying that I shouldn't compare FFXI now to FFXIV now because FFXI has got so much better since 2009? All those things are great QoL improvements. Gearing up is subjective. Right now, you can easily land level 99 and a set of iLv119 (the highest) gear, but can you successfully participate in endgame with that? Can you even solo clear the storyline with that? Nope. It's a good starting point to explore the rest of the game and, if you're a new player, it's still a long and full journey to get to that point.

edit: to clarify, there are a couple of dozen options at i119 for each job. Not all i119 pieces are created equal. You can start your endgame with an i119 set, but you still have an enormous amount to strive for. In FFXIV, you only have one or two options for the top iLv at that patch and there's not much in those options.

Right now, FFXI is nothing but endgame, because only hardcore players are still playing.

Categorically not the case. There are more new/returning players than people playing endgame. The midcore casual players, progressing with gear upgrades and content vastly outnumber the hardcore.

Making FFXIV for the hardcore only is a terrible idea that would kill the game.

It would. Glad no-one's suggesting that.

If you want that game, play it. Keep its archaic systems out of FFXIV, though.

Such archaic systems as non-instanced dungeons, open world levelling, gear that can influence more than 20 stats, monsters that can kill you and instanced housing? If you're talking about FFXI c2009, ok, but FFXIV could learn a few good lessons from FFXI c2018.

This is exactly why I quit for good. I could not find a party anymore, and there wasn't anyone to do content with me. Of course there were those Trust NPCs, but I failed to unlock them because no one would help me. Sure there are guides online, but still. Being all alone, it was the end for me playing any longer.

That's a sad experience. There are half a dozen Discord channels run by the different FFXI fansites where people will leap on any opportunity to help out. It's always difficult meeting new people in a new MMO, but FFXI has got an in-game Tutorial that guides you through your first steps with combat, levelling, unlocking Trusts and finding a Linkshell and Unity with other people in it to play and talk to. If the urge takes you again at any point, jump into FFXIclopedia's Discord text channel and I'll be happy to play with you and introduce you to some stellar folk.

Trust NPC's didn't exist when I quit. It was party or nothing, when you found a good party you kept going till you actually hurt or were starving because god knew when you'd find a good party again. ..uphill.. in the snow... both ways =] I'm such a fogey. Oh well. It was fun when I got to adventure, but the leveling grind and absolute dependence on synergistic parties was not for me at the end.

That game doesn't exist any more, but I can sympathise. I remember the frustration of trying to level Dark Knight myself (I only got as far as 37 before FFXIV was released). Nowadays there's a game with the same title and a lot of the same stuff, but it's extremely playable and fun. Give it a shot if you get bored of this one!

[Talraen]

Such archaic systems as non-instanced dungeons, open world levelling, gear that can influence more than 20 stats, monsters that can kill you and instanced housing? If you're talking about FFXI c2009, ok, but FFXIV could learn a few good lessons from FFXI c2018.

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself )

I disagree with this. Danger IS fun - when you have the capability to handle the danger. Don't mistake Sneak and Invis as tools that totally cancel the danger; if you were using them, more often than not it wasn't just to get through the danger until you reached a safe haven, but to get to some place in the dangerous zone, do something, and then move on. The "do something" part could be part of a quest, getting to a good fishing spot, mining or harvesting, so on and so forth - but while doing them, Sneak and Invis would not be an option (well, Invis, at any rate).

The point is that while you may find danger compelling, and even I have some very memorable stories about dangerous situations, having a dangerous open world drives many other people away from the game.

[ManuelBravo]

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself )

Hmmm did you happen to play FFXIV when it was v1.0? To give you an example, outside of cities Ul'dah for example there was an area were mobs were level 80. Pretty much that was open world leveling and need a strong party top take them down. SE deem it too hard, system was a bit too complicated, people really saw it as a grind. Very similar to FFXI , you even had stock for range weapons, hence were realm reborn came into play to make it more player friendly. Now from what I can see the only real dangerous monsters are considered hunts and fates outside.

As for gear; hopefully SE does something in terms of Relic gear enhancements similar to old FFXI. I would loved that. Hated how most looked but loved the concept. Raid items , seals, old versions needed, dynamis, ect.

[Talraen]

Hmmm did you happen to play FFXIV when it was v1.0? To give you an example, outside of cities Ul'dah for example there was an area were mobs were level 80. Pretty much that was open world leveling and need a strong party top take them down. SE deem it too hard, system was a bit too complicated, people really saw it as a grind. Very similar to FFXI , you even had stock for range weapons, hence were realm reborn came into play to make it more player friendly. Now from what I can see the only real dangerous monsters are considered hunts and fates outside.

As for gear; hopefully SE does something in terms of Relic gear enhancements similar to old FFXI. I would loved that. Hated how most looked but loved the concept. Raid items , seals, old versions needed, dynamis, ect.

Did you play 1.0? Because yes, I did, and that is not at all how things worked. Level 80 and above mobs were indeed present, but no size of party could or did kill them. They would one-shot anyone at any level. The only way you got to aetherytes beyond these mobs was to avoid them, and in the cases where they were located in tight spaces (mostly in the shroud but also in what is now Outer La Noscea, among other places) you'd get past them by having a group too large for the mobs to kill everyone before some people got through. In case it wasn't clear, none of this was remotely compelling content.

Now what I suspect you're referring to was the presence of aggressive level 20-ish antlings in Thanalan. And they were a pain, because they were located among otherwise low-level mobs between low-level aetheryte camps, and served to kill anyone who wasn't paying close attention when traveling. The funny thing is, these antlings were actually more dangerous than anything in FFXI, because while FFXI did have aggressive and slightly higher-level mobs in low-level zones (typically the beastmen), they were at least in the general level range of the rest of the zone, not 10 or more levels above them. A solo player in FFXI could call for help and maybe survive a goblin attack, but antlings would tear through any number of level 12 characters in FFXIV.

So why was any of this good? People complained about it, and it was rightly removed. Because people hated it.

[ManuelBravo]

Did you ....
So why was any of this good? People complained about it, and it was rightly removed. Because people hated it.

No it was removed because people bitched and complain, and no if you were maxed out they could be taken down in a full group. Sure they were tough ( was used as a cheat a while ago on FFXIV Quest item ) that would prevent damage for a specific amount of time. They were squish. Also range bouncing was common to use on those to by pass. So no they were not all powerful if you used the landscape around you and used attacks accordingly. Of course it really did not help much so most just avoided. Your right people hated the fact that the game was really hard and and poor interface, the story was good. Hence change of directed and boom Lets nuke the place came about. Still the way people bitch and complain lately is way too much. I'm sure you can agree on this, people still wipe on old content just because either their incompetent, lack common sense, or just over confident and ignore mechanics. Unlike FFXI you actually had to use something called common sense.

Now a days people want something for just trying and unfortunately that is what most of this game has become. I commend SE for complying to most demands, however to constantly nerf what is suppose to be considered average to hard content so anyone can access or complete is going a bit too far, Nerfing the content ok I can buy that, but constant nerfing? some of us actually like the challenge, and like to co-op with people.

[AnimaAnimus]

you'd get past them by having a group too large for the mobs to kill everyone before some people got through.

Funny, cause I unlocked all gates and camps completely solo as did many of my friends who played at the time. Even my super duper casual room mate unlocked them all with little effort. If you needed a large group to do it you were either A: lazy or B: bad.

[Mjollnir]

I would like to know how, specifically, you would implement non-instanced dungeons, open world leveling, more stats on gear, and dangerous monsters to FFXIV. (I can figure out the instanced housing myself )

Hah, I'm no programmer, so no idea. I'm presuming the dungeons we had in 1.0, which were open world, were removed because of zone-size memory issues? Wow that just took me back to hours trying to get different coloured keys to drop for chests in Shposhae and doing GC leves in Cassiopea Hollow. ?

Open-world levelling... Power up those open world mobs that most people ignore and grant XP chains, or have special leves that are open-ended. There's loads of ways that can be done.

More stats on gear... so this is having a ring that's instead +Base Stat, would be eg, -50% Berserk Cooldown or +50% Berserk Duration. Something players could decide if it was something they'd prefer to take over the next.

Dangerous monsters... I mean, just whack up their stat numbers, right? Surely that's got to be better than having a world where people just dash through weak trash, eating the hits without a thought and letting them rubber band back to their spawn points

[Talraen]

Hah, I'm no programmer, so no idea. I'm presuming the dungeons we had in 1.0, which were open world, were removed because of zone-size memory issues? Wow that just took me back to hours trying to get different coloured keys to drop for chests in Shposhae and doing GC leves in Cassiopea Hollow. ?

Open-world levelling... Power up those open world mobs that most people ignore and grant XP chains, or have special leves that are open-ended. There's loads of ways that can be done.

More stats on gear... so this is having a ring that's instead +Base Stat, would be eg, -50% Berserk Cooldown or +50% Berserk Duration. Something players could decide if it was something they'd prefer to take over the next.

Dangerous monsters... I mean, just whack up their stat numbers, right? Surely that's got to be better than having a world where people just dash through weak trash, eating the hits without a thought and letting them rubber band back to their spawn points

Sorry, I didn't mean specifically as in like, actually coding it. I just meant, how would you want to see it implemented in a way that would improve the game?

My issue with a lot of the FFXI nostalgia is that even the stuff that did work in FFXI worked because it fit into FFXI's paradigm. In FFXIV terms, I presume both open-world dungeons and open-world leveling were removed because of the Duty Finder. The Duty Finder relies on instanced duties to work, and existed originally primarily as a leveling method. Having open-world content for leveling would therefore compete with the Duty Finder, causing less people to use it, and thus making it less useful to everyone. Given how MMOs work, everyone would inevitably determine that either a.) the Duty Finder was the better way to level, and abandon open-world leveling or b.) open-world leveling was the better way to level, and abandon the Duty Finder. If you want a Duty Finder (and I do), the best bet is to remove any real competition from it, but give people a way to gain some experience while they wait for a queue. And that's why they made FATEs. (Again, this is all assumption on my part, but it makes sense.)

Gear stats are an entire can of worms that have been argued to death on these forums, and I don't really want to get into that. The tl;dr version is that player choice is an illusion, and designing for it is a fool's errand.

For dangerous monsters, sure you can just make overworld monsters more deadly, but how does that improve the game? As we've discussed, in FFXI people snuck past most overworld monsters with abilities that don't even exist in FFXIV. Even FFXI players would not have put up with actually having to fight their way through world maps to get anywhere. It's just a time sink. Modern FFXI has largely removed this aspect of the game by allowing mounts almost anywhere and having a huge number of travel options. So what makes you think this would be better than the current system, and why?