Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[Lord_Umbra]

I pay money to play this game

They also pay money play how they please, you're free get angry they're free to not listen & get angry back. If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with instead of pugs if ticks you off that much or learn to relax.. we had bad time in LoTA other day B kept messing up we all remain calm "except 1 who quit" wiped 4 times before B-team finally did job cleaning up bombs & keeping their vaago to their side
& we got past it.. so you need get some highly active friends or get some patience.

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

[SavageCipher]

They also pay money play how they please, you're free get angry they're free to not listen & get angry back. If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with instead of pugs if ticks you off that much or learn to relax.. we had bad time in LoTA other day B kept messing up we all remain calm "except 1 who quit" wiped 4 times before B-team finally did job cleaning up bombs & keeping their vaago to their side
& we got past it.. so you need get some highly active friends or get some patience.

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

Did you read the part about scapegoating?

Stop scapegoating.

[Jijifli]

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

Yes. People can be bad at the game. On their own time.

When your bad playing forces others to slow down though, and I don't mean "LUL IT TOOK 5 SECONDS" I mean having a 45 minute Skalla run, people gotta step up.

Also...

If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with

Stop. Using. This. Yes that can work, but wanna know a funny kicker? You need 3+ people who fit the roles needed that want to do that at the same time. Just like how you're saying we can't force people to press more than 1 button, I can't force people to run content with me in the first place. When the stars allign it's perfect, but that's not always going to happen. And even more to my point, I don't even expect good play. I expect basics. If by 50 dungeons you don't know what a combo is, you shouldn't be playing with random people who just want to get through the dungeon. If by the time you're at Skalla and you can't cast Fire, you probably shouldn't be going with random people. If by the time you're in Emanation EX you can't press Cure II on a WHM, you probably shouldn't be playing with randoms.

Basics. If the game can be completed without them, it might as well start playing itself.

[winsock]

Yeah it can, since levels shows a basis for how long a player has been playing this game therefore someone with all tanks at 70 should know at least the basics, IE: holding hate.

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?
You're going on a witch hunt:
"This lady owns a black cat and a broom! Definitely a witch!"
"This guy has shift eyes! Definitely a murderer!"
"That person wasn't hired for the job! Definitely discrimination of some sort!"

[Jijifli]

John has a level 70 tank.

John made it to 70 on a tank doing 0 group content.
John decides he wants to do a dungeon
John decides he wants to do a dungeon under "expert."
John doesn't know what he's doing.
John can't do the expert dungeon Properly.
John claims it's not his fault he jumped into late game content without knowing a thing about what he's doing.
John is the problem.

Tl;Dr, John can do a lower leveled dungeon first to get experience if he really doesn't know how to tank.

[winsock]

Tl;Dr, John can do a lower leveled dungeon first to get experience if he really doesn't know how to tank.

We can make up stories about john all day. Do you have evidence that john is being lazy? That is the entire point of my discussion with Miste. Dont accuse people without evidence.

for example:
John just hit level 70.
He wants to do a dungeon.
Since he's level 70, he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon from the list.
You queue for expert roulette and John is your tank. He's in over his head, but didnt know beforehand that he would be.
Without evidence, his group begins to accuse him of being lazy. He should have known better, trash tank, etc.
John never tanks again.
The next day, a dps from his party complains about the lack of tanks.

Is it really john just being lazy? Or did he just not know any better? If you don't know his circumstances, don't judge him as if you know

[HyoMinPark]

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

So, if John has zero experience tanking, why would he queue into a higher level dungeon having zero idea what he’s doing? And then why would he expect to be given a free pass because he didn’t level his tanks through dungeons, but wanted to do higher level dungeons on a job he has no experience on because “it’s just a game” and he wanted to roll a tank?

Something isn’t right with your scenario.

If John has a level 70 tank, has no idea how to play said level 70 tank, but queues into a level 70 dungeon and basically just says “YOLO it’s just a game”, why should John get a free pass for subjecting 3 other random people to his inevitably poor performance? And why aren’t the other 3 allowed to hold him accountable? You roll a tank in level 70 content, people are going to assume you know the bare basics. When you show that you don’t, that’s no one’s fault but yours for not properly trying to learn and instead just “going with it”.

We can make up stories about john all day. Do you have evidence that john is being lazy? That is the entire point of my discussion with Miste. Dont accuse people without evidence.

for example:
John just hit level 70.
He wants to do a dungeon.
Since he's level 70, he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon from the list.
You queue for expert roulette and John is your tank. He's in over his head, but didnt know beforehand that he would be.
Without evidence, his group begins to accuse him of being lazy. He should have known better, trash tank, etc.
John never tanks again.
The next day, a dps from his party complains about the lack of tanks.

Is it really john just being lazy? Or did he just not know any better? If you don't know his circumstances, don't judge him as if you know

Yes, he is lazy. Because he queued into a level 70 dungeon with zero idea what he’s supposed to be doing, and didn’t try to practice at lower dungeons or with friends first. Or even look up a simple guide, although practice makes perfect with a guide as just a companion/reference to use during his practice. Instead, he subjected randoms to an inevitably poor performance because, why practice this job that I’m going to roll in level-cap content?

Just want to point out that just because of the supposed ignorance of others behind John’s actual tanking skill (and the reasons for why his tanking skill is, for lack of a more eloquent term, garbage), doesn’t mean his behavior is right or excused. Stop making excuses.

[MoroMurasaki]

On a somewhat related note this entire thread makes me feel less patient with new/underperforming players.

To the people trying to defend poor play... what is your goal? Is it to make those of us who have even the most basic of standards somehow more sympathetic towards these players? If so, in my case at least, you've failed.

I had an ice mage in my latest Shisui run. The healer caught on to what was happening a bit quicker than I did (I had other players effects turned off) but after both the healer and I tried to get this guy to do something resembling a rotation up towards the second boss a vote kick option popped up. I took it. The blm in question hadn't been the most gracious person, he mostly just responded with 'lol' to our advice, but I feel like before beating this dead horse in this thread and the many like it I would have given the guy a pass unless the healer really pushed the issue.

I don't think the healer (or myself) did anything wrong. We offered advice and it wasn't taken. At the same time I am losing patience with these people and I think part of that is the knowledge that there are actual experienced players in this game who feel it's perfectly acceptable to ice mage your way to an O4S clear.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?
You're going on a witch hunt:
"This lady owns a black cat and a broom! Definitely a witch!"
"This guy has shift eyes! Definitely a murderer!"
"That person wasn't hired for the job! Definitely discrimination of some sort!"

Crazy witch cat lazy isn't abruptly forcing three random people to deal with her inexperience raising a dog when she decided, on a whim, to try owning one.

Therein lies the flaw with your analogy. People have a right to reasonable expectations when they queue into content. If John, "never tanked a dungeon before" tank decides to queue into level 70 dungeon and has absolutely no idea what he's doing, the fault remains his for essentially wasting the time of three unsuspecting players who he didn't give a damn about when he queued. And were John in my party, I would show him the door once five minutes elapsed.

I don't think the healer (or myself) did anything wrong. We offered advice and it wasn't taken. At the same time I am losing patience with these people and I think part of that is the knowledge that there are actual experienced players in this game who feel it's perfectly acceptable to ice mage your way to an O4S clear.

I wouldn't feel bad because these types of players certain don't. They expect us to carry them because "it's just a game" yet if we shared their attitude nothing would ever get done. I'l kick DPS who refuse nowadays. I'm just tired of carrying lazy players who refuse to respond to advice or get their panties all twisted because you dared to tell them their rotation isn't the best.

[winsock]

So, if John has zero...

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug. The bottom line is that if you don't know what their circumstances are it pretty unfair of you to:
* Dream up their circumstances in your imagination
* Treat that dream as if it is reality
* Then hold them accountable to the transgressions they made in your imagination