Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

[winsock]

So, if John has zero...

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug. The bottom line is that if you don't know what their circumstances are it pretty unfair of you to:
* Dream up their circumstances in your imagination
* Treat that dream as if it is reality
* Then hold them accountable to the transgressions they made in your imagination

[MoroMurasaki]

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

This doesn't make any sense. Who would honestly make that jump?

This is a far reach even by forum standards.

Oh god, I used the word standards, I am elitist scum now.

[Cakekizyy]

This doesn't make any sense. Who would honestly make that jump?

This is a far reach even by forum standards.

Oh god, I used the word standards, I am elitist scum now.

See other tanks make it look easy. Figure it can't be that hard. They try it on level and faceplant.

[HyoMinPark]

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug. The bottom line is that if you don't know what their circumstances are it pretty unfair of you to:
* Dream up their circumstances in your imagination
* Treat that dream as if it is reality
* Then hold them accountable to the transgressions they made in your imagination

That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party. Stop making excuses for these people. They obviously don’t care enough about the random players in their party to try and not perform poorly, so why should you care to make excuses for them?

There is a base expectation when someone queues into level 70 content on a level 70 job, they know how to play said level 70 job—I’m not even talking about at an optimized level, but at a basic level: tanks tank, hold aggro, use cooldowns; healers heal, maybe weave in some DPS; DPS use DPS skills, single-target and AOE when appropriate. When they fail to meet that very basic expectation, it is no one’s fault but theirs. John doesn’t know how to tank but decides to tank and does poorly? That’s his fault for not trying to actually learn before he subjected random people to his play.

Inb4 you say: “You shouldn’t have expectations in DF”—that’s fine, but there are still minimum expectations there.
—Tanks are expected to know how to tank (aggro management, cooldown management)
—Healers are expected to know how to heal (when and where to heal, and which type to use [AOE or Single Target])
—DPS are expected to know how to DPS (a very basic 1-2-3 rotation, and when to use single-target or AOE skills)

[winsock]

That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party.

I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

[HyoMinPark]

I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

They should be assisted. Because at least they are doing entry-level content and trying to learn. I would give props to a max-level player (or even a player that was level 50/60 and that jumped a job) for queuing into an entry-level piece of group content and trying to build up their skill on a job that way.

But. There is a huge difference from this scenario you’re now presenting, and your previous one of a level 70 tank that doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content wanting to learn, and assuming people would be just as accommodating. People generally are more willing to help a level 15 player learn (or even a higher level player that is running level 15 content learn) than helping a level 70 player learn in max-level content.

[winsock]

They should be assisted.

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

There is a huge difference from this scenario you’re now presenting, and your previous one of a level 70 tank that doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content wanting to learn, and assuming people would be just as accommodating.

I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

[Jijifli]

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Technically speaking, it's still inconsiderate (thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others). They could have thought it out better, researched more, practice more, etc to not inconvenience their party members.

Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha. Sastasha is the first dungeon, and to be completely honest, I expect literally 3 afk's if I go in there. Why? It's the first dungeon, people who'd been playing for maybe a day get into there. My example in Snowcloak, I'm getting irritated because the tank can't hold threat. I had a Sastasha in leveling roulette yesterday on my exact same job, with a similar case of pulling off the tank. Wanna know what I did differently? I assisted the player, explaining what can help them out. By the end of the dungeon, the player had the boss and could do his job.

Now if level 15 Jimmy could do it, why can't level 70 John? If he just listens in Sastasha he'll learn a lot.

[winsock]

Here's your issue. You changed the dungeon in question to sastasha.

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

[HyoMinPark]

Didn't you say just a moment ago "That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party."

You can’t use that argument against me, and you know it.

The prior statement was made when you were talking about level 70 content. The second scenario is level 15 content. Different arguments apply because the context is entirely different. There is a huge difference between a tank who doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content and level 15 content. The latter is clearly designed as entry-level, and is more adequate for both learning and teaching than level-cap, “expert” content.

I mean, they both could have practiced on mobs in the open world. they could have watched videos. They could have practice a the smith a few more times, etc.

Tanking mobs in the overworld and tanking them in dungeons are entirely different.

I didn't say john was assuming the party would be accommodating or that he was queuing with the intent of learning. John queued because he thought he knew how to play and since he is level 70, he queued for a 70 dungeon. How did you come to the conclusion that he queued with the intention of learning from an accommodating party? You couldnt have known. If you couldn't know johns circumstances, you must have made them up. And if the circumstances were just dreamt up in your imagination, how can you hold john accountable? He never did the things you are accusing him of.

I can hold John accountable because he came into level 70 content and could not perform the very basics of his job description regardless of his “circumstances”. Again, there is a HUGE different between John in level 15 content and John in level 70 content.

What makes sastasha so special?
I've done most of the expert roulette roster without a healer (havent attempted since the addition of skalla). I've heard they can be completed without a tank. Why must it be sastasha?

I think its great you assisted the player in sastasha. I agree people who refuse to work with the party should be kicked (for example if you ask someone to use tank stance and flash but they refuse). What is the issue with assisting someone in say, Ala Mhigo instead of Sastasha if they need help? It's really not a big deal is it?

The difference is, you shouldn’t be teaching a PLD how Flash works in Ala Mhigo. If they are a level 70 PLD and don’t know how Flash functions after playing the job for 70 levels (or even just 10 if you want to assume maybe they jumped the job), then there is a huge problem there.

You shouldn’t be teaching someone the VERY BASICS OF THEIR ROLE at endgame.