When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[Oscura]

That was overdramatization pages ago in this thread and it still is...having the combo on a single button would change nothing on how you plan your GCDs over the course of the fight...

It's not overdramatization. If people are so concerned with button bloat as their main reason for consolidating combos, then we might as well consolidate oGCDs too. It's not an extreme in the slightest, there is no reason to have multiple oGCD buttons if we don't need multiple combo buttons. The only reason is preference, which a lot of people have already made clear they do not care about. "You prefer having multiple buttons for combos? Too bad," is the essence of some posts here. You prefer having multiple oGCDs? Too bad. After all, pressing extra oGCDs isn't more difficulty, it's just pressing more buttons, just like with combos.

Just because it is not aligning with your argument or convenient for your viewpoint does not mean it is "overdramatization."

[Reynhart]

If people are so concerned with button bloat as their main reason for consolidating combos, then we might as well consolidate oGCDs too. It's not an extreme in the slightest, there is no reason to have multiple oGCD buttons if we don't need multiple combo buttons.

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

Fusing oGCD...like, for example fusing Blood Weapon and Blood Price and only change them according to Grit would prevent you from using one of them, then switching stance, and using the other. It would significantly reduce how you plan your whole rotation.

The most blatant proof of that is that, were you to look at fflogs timeline, having combos on a single button would give you the exact same timeline. Can you say the same about fusing oGCDs ?

[Oscura]

If they are smart about it, they can keep the skill bloat way down to a minimum by further leveraging the tier system for skills, by adding new effects through traits or any other variety of methods that don't involve specifically adding X new skills to the jobs every expansion. The only reason these days it's seen as 'necessary' by the population is because that's the meta they're used to seeing. Shiny new skills, flashy new animations, brand new eye candy with new possibilities.... all of which can be accomplished without the need for bloat and without having to further condense the system. They have the technology and I'd rather see them leverage that than blindly add new slot-able skills just because that's what's expected.

It would be great to see entire combos transform after level 70. New animations, new effects, purely based from traits. It would remove the need to add new buttons and still give everyone something new to play with.

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

Fusing oGCD...like, for example fusing Blood Weapon and Blood Price and only change them according to Grit would prevent you from using one of them, then switching stance, and using the other. It would significantly reduce how you plan your whole rotation.

The most blatant proof of that is that, were you to look at fflogs timeline, having combos on a single button would give you the exact same timeline. Can you say the same about fusing oGCDs ?

The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain." My generalization was regarding offensive oGCDs.

Regarding timeline and reduction of "planning rotation," my point was that people are constantly stating "pressing more buttons does not mean more difficulty." Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then? Because the timeline and the rotation would change? According to most posters here, that's just "fake difficulty," and "pressing buttons in order isn't hard." A rotation is more or less still one-directional just like pressing combos, it's just not spelled out for you on your UI like combos are.

[Felis]

Except combos are already linked together, not oGCDs. Fusing the combos will change nothing about how you plan and use them.

So MNK is excluded?
Good ^^

[Reynhart]

The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain."

So MNK is excluded?

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then?

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press;

Even if it means reducing the room for potential new abilities that would actually deeped the gameplay of your job ?

[Oscura]

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either. Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

[Reynhart]

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk.

Also adresses 10 pages ago...come on...

People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat.

Do you mean that people should manually change the layout of their hotbar during combat to rotate oGCD ?

As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either.

But we still need the freedom of using them when we want in any order we want, which is not the case with combos. (Even for MNK)

Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult.

Yes, it does, since you have more skills to include in your rotation and synergize with other skills.

They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses.

No, that's not why. It's to create a better balance.

Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

It's because the only point you make is trying to draw parallels between GCD and oGCD, even though they are completely different in the first place.

[Oscura]

Also adresses 10 pages ago...come on...

I'm going to be very curt here, your awful form shift idea addresses nothing. I just really don't feel like wasting my time explaining why weaving in form shift is functionally impossible even if it was made an oGCD because of all the buttons Monk has during its opener. Especially when the crutch is "RoF slows down GCD," there are times where RoF isn't up and sometimes people need to or will PB there.

Edit: I'm just going to take a hard stance and include that as long as GL3 and PB stay the way they are, depending on your SkS tier and the existence of forms in general, combo consolidation will never work with Monk. Not unless you like clipping in the middle of Perfect Balance, which might be one of the most terrifying things I can even think of.

But we still need the freedom of using them when we want in any order we want, which is not the case with combos. (Even for MNK)

Wrong. We do not "need" anything. The same way people do not "need," to have to press multiple separate buttons for combos, people do not "need" freedom to use oGCDs in any order they want. It is purely preference, as posted here time and time again, pressing buttons in order or pressing "multiple buttons" does not create more depth, skill or difficulty. Your desire to have multiple oGCD buttons is akin to people wanting combo buttons to be separate, purely opinion and purely preference. There is no factual reason as to why aside from "it feels better to weave in multiple oGCDs," the same way as "it feels better to press combos in sequence on different buttons." There is nothing that states that we need oGCD attacks with separate cooldowns or animations.

It's because the only point you make is trying to draw parallels between GCD and oGCD, even though they are completely different in the first place.

They are really not that different. People call the extra buttons in combos fillers because they are separate skills tied to a format that is always followed. I was merely drawing the parallel that all skills, ultimately, are used in such a way that they are used "in order." There is no "difficulty," or "skill," in doing a rotation, or pressing extra buttons, so it means that there's no point in having more oGCDs than "needed." Unless, of course, it's because it feels right, or better that way, which is what people who argue against consolidation of combos are saying.

It just feels incredibly hypocritical to me.

[Shurrikhan]

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation -- none -- no GCD) cycling of those choices.

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either.

The reason combos were put on that chopping block is because they have literally no other order in which they can be pressed without wrecking themselves. That does not apply to the majority of oGCDs.

Very few oGCDs have obligatory ordering, and only one example (Mirage Dive) stands as nearly as slot-wasteful as any combo.

Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

They don't necessarily add complexity, as many oGCDs CD-sync naturally, but not all do sync naturally and those, in turn, add complexity. Whether that complexity then "deepens" the experience for the vast majority of players, however, is indeed debatable. I'd argue that SE's stance is that they do not, and that they'd rather see skill-gap squished, whatever the (job-gutting/-filleting) means necessary.

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too? Can't combine F&C and WT, though, or people will know they just basically got the same ability twice when we ran out of ideas, let alone make them into real and separate options. Heck, it's not like people need Jump; it just adds periodic damage, and didn't we just say before SB that we wanted DoTs gone for similar reasons of artificial-yet-skill-gap-inducing difficulty?)

[Oscura]

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation, no GCD) cycling of those choices.

Read what I said about triple weaving.

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too?

Heavy Thrust is a useless button and I've said that since 2.0, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there entirely, regarding "real tools."

So, I guess you never stand at the center of the room to keep DPSsing Alte Roite while everybody spreads for Levinbolts...or stay close to Halicarnassus while the other DPS have to move to fill other DPS squares so that they're out of range and thus, potentially wasting Brotherhood...or staying close to Catastrophe to put a tentacle while other DPS have to stay away to place other tentacles and can't DPS...

But I guess three main mechanics in Savage are only straws...

This might actually blow your mind, but if you play Monk properly neither two none of these things will ever be an issue. The only people who influence Brotherhood are people who do physical DPS, which is every melee in the game, every tank, bard and machinist. If Alte Roite is in the middle the distance between the middle and the edge is roughly 15y, you can ask any Red Mage to confirm that one. (The joke is that Red Mages have in the past constantly jumped off to their demise because they actually overshoot it, despite displacement's back jump being 15y.) So you shouldn't have to wait and should be able to hit everyone with Brotherhood regardless. For Hali, my tanks, the other melee and our bard stands within 15y so that brotherhood will work, and there are often times where I can't even Brotherhood at all because I already used it prior, making this point moot. As for placing tentacles, if you're doing it right, the four tentacles being placed in cardinal directions shouldn't even be 10y away from each other, let alone 15. I can hit everyone just fine with Brotherhood. Healers and casters be damned, because it does not influence them and they do not contribute toward my chakra count at all, aside from very situational Red Mage nonsense. Again, you are reaching.