Tank dps harrasment

[MoroMurasaki]

PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

Exceedingly well said.

I haven't been in the game for 4 years, closer to two with a large break of about 8 months thrown in the middle, but I do have something of a unique perspective in comparison to a lot of people on the "parser/DPS harrassment doesn't happen much" camp because (comparatively speaking) I am new to any content beyond Expert dungeons. Omega normal was my first set of raids, Susie/Lakshmi/Shinryu were my first EX primals I did on content and I think as someone breaking into this setting for the first time you're more likely to bring out the worst in people due to your inexperience.

I can confidently say that despite my not-very-good non-dungeon healing experience the worst thing I've had happen was someone call me out on my lack of HoT usage in O1S in a Discord voice chat for a PF I joined. It wasn't done in a super friendly way but at the same time I can recognize the difference between someone being very cut-and-dry as opposed to the harrassment people love to screech about lately.

I think if you're going to call something harrassment you have to ask yourself a few basic questions before complaining.

• Was it respectfully delivered? Someone being cold is different from someone being rude.
• Is what they said going to help you improve? If so it seems kind if crazy to comolain about good advice.
• Is what they've brought up relavent to the current situation/does it effect them in a meaningful way? This could mean hitting enrage because you've slacked on DPS or letting a tank die in a dungeon because you've been too busy Holy spamming.

If you can answer any those questions with a yes, however begrudging that yes may be, you are not being harrassed. To claim that any unsolicited advice is harrassment is to live in a world where you're harrassed every day at work by your boss, at school by your teachers and by the weather channel when they tell you to bring an umbrella with you. Sometimes someone is in a position to help improve you/your experience and it's smart to sit back and listen even if you don't immediately love what's being said.

Tl;dr - The issue with the ongoing debate around harrassment feels (to me) more like an issue with what is categorized as harrassment than with the frequency with which real harrassment happens.

To draw a parallel with real life right now I see a lot of people talking about frequent instances of sexual harrassment irl. As someone who has worked in the service industry for the past 10 years (so since I could legally work) I can say instances of sexual harrassment for me have been incredibly few and far between.

When I read further into this apparent 'sexual harrassment epidemic' I see that the reason my opinion differs here is not because I'm experiencing these things less but rather because the things people arre categorizing as harassment are not things I think of in that light. Everything from whistling at a girl on the street to holding a door open for a woman to giving a compliment on someone's physical appearance is lumped into harassment.

Not to toot my own horn but pretty much every day I go out in public at least some of these things happen but since I'm not looking at them as some kind of grand conspiracy to insult me as a woman and rather just compliments or people being nice I'm not offended.

It's all about perspective people. If you stop looking for monsters maybe the shadows will seem less scary.

Edit: Wow that got ranty. Sorry, I had a long day o.o

[Shurrikhan]

never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.

[Fhaerron]

Not even sure what this thread is going about any more.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem and SE tries to do something about the toxic behavior like they did with PvP. You do not see how saying I doubt it happens as people make it out to be does not undermine those that come forward after facing such harassment? I mean at the very last I try to address what your points when I reply, you simply ignore them. The fact it happens means SE needs to try and do something, since clearly telling people to play nice is not cutting it.

Reality is bringing frequency into the equation does undermine the issue since it has to be a wide spread issue for people to look at it and try to solve the issue beyond. People just got to be nice, and report to the a GM and move on. That is clearly not working. It is not about flipping the argument, I bring it up it since I have been waiting for you this whole time to answer the basic question, how often does it have to become for it to be a problem?

That is why I brought in sexual harassment. Since the main issue when someone brings frequency into the equation of harassment, where do you draw line for it to be an issue. Depending the issue people have different quotas so to speak. For some once a month in too much, or others may upwards of 30 times a month. That is why I am focusing on frequency. Since in end we agree on the same points, people should be nicer, but is probably not going to happen. Still don't you see how telling someone that has gone through such abuse that it has not happened enough for it to be considered a serious enough issue to warrant the issue to be looked further into.

More inclined to think that if this was another form of harassment we would not be having this conversation. Do you really not see how telling something that has gone through the abuse, I am sorry I know it sucks, but has not happened enough yet for us to take a deeper look at the problem, so just report them and move on? Tell that to someone that has been sexually harassed. I know you going to say the cannot compare, but in my eyes all forms of harassment are important, from bullying to sexual harassment. They all matter.

That is why I am focus on the frequency aspect, I am just trying to show you how heartless the comment is when it comes to harassment. I know it is your experience, but it is silly to bring frequency since that means that such abuse has to hit a threshold before it will be taken seriously. That is fucked if that is how we view cases of harassment. Has not happened enough to warrant resources going into further examine why such cases of harassment happen and what we can do to somewhat alleviate the issue. I am sorry simply report and move on, or other people would say get good so people to not mock your performance. (Please understand I am not saying for you it has to hit a threshold for it to be taken seriously, but for many it does and for those people they will latch on to that notion and not let gone. They will say do not worry it rarely happens just report and move on. You prob will not deal with that often.) That sucks since for some as stated it does happen a lot, and they are offered no preventive protection or reactive. So do you see how that may hurt someone that goes through such abuse fairly frequent. Remember silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it.

The only line of defense people have to such abuse is to get harassed report and black list said player. So the person has to be harassed first for the tools we have in place to take effect. Silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event

That is not fucked at all.

Since end of the day what percentage of the player base would it have to happen to for it to become a big enough problem.

[Dualgunner]

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line

Reality is bringing frequency into the equation does undermine the issue since it has to be a wide spread issue for people to look at it and try to solve the issue beyond. People just got to be nice, and report to the a GM and move on. That is clearly not working.

I draw the line at never.

We're never going to have accurate data on parser / fflogs harassment numbers. And we can't have any action on hearsay from either side. We will never know what the current frequency is, and I have doubts even SE has accurate numbers.

Also pvp chat is just an example that Square actively interfering only creates more problems than it solves.

[Taika]

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem and SE tries to do something about the toxic behavior like they did with PvP.

All SE can do is react on harassment reports and punish harassers.

All we as players can do is speak up against harassment, remove harassing players from groups and send those reports.

This is certainly not an issue Miste can resolve so I don't understand why you keep demanding that from her.

[Awha]

I draw the line at never.

We're never going to have accurate data on parser / fflogs harassment numbers. And we can't have any action on hearsay from either side. We will never know what the current frequency is, and I have doubts even SE has accurate numbers.

Also pvp chat is just an example that Square actively interfering only creates more problems than it solves.

All SE can do is react on harassment reports and punish harassers.

All we as players can do is speak up against harassment, remove harassing players from groups and send those reports.

This is certainly not an issue Miste can resolve so I don't understand why you keep demanding that from her.

Both of you are right, in case of PvP I do not like the changes, though I do see less topics being made about the toxic minatory in PvP. It still happens and it sucks we can no longer use chat, but it has been curbed, more likely it it was just a half measure to protect the willfully ignorant. Though I honestly do not have any data, but at the very least we have fewer threads regarding it.

Also not much anyone can do both of you are 100% just so happens when someone brings frequency into the equation when it comes to harassment, since really it should not play any part of the equation, no one is asking SE to make the impossible possible, but at the very least people do have to see how mentioning how infrequent it happens does sting a little to those that face said issues? Since for some it happens frequently, and that sucks. That is why it should not be part of the equation, since then it becomes about perspective.

I can realistic say no one is expecting a permanent fix, and I know the idea of requesting fflogs to be opt-in instead of out will not change much of anything, I do not have the intelligence required to figure out a viable solution that is more preventive in the sense that offers some form of protection that helps prevent the player from getting harnessed. Instead of a reactive one, since reactive measures only protect the player from future encounters with the person has already harassed them, offers no protection from future encounters from new people. Though those that have the intelligence to maybe come up with a stop gap will not look at the situation if we as a community try to equate how often a issue happens with relevance. That is why I feel trying to bring it into the equation is messed up, since for some it does happen frequently and the only protection SE has provided is report and ignore those that do it. Thing is for most of the people that this happens to it does not happen in bleeding edge content, just basic causal level content. Though at the very least if a person simply could not look up someones logs on FFlogs and they had to be given them at could act as a stop gap, and they just avoid that group when they request logs. As a last resort they could make it personal, and maybe FFlogs could add an option to sync the logs as a group if your static desires it.

I do not know just spit balling ideas, though if more people are brought to be aware of the issue maybe those that can find a decent solution will look into the issue, but until we stop trying to downplay how often it happens that will never be the case. That is why I am harping on the whole frequency aspect, overall I agree with her, just that tossing in frequency into the equation it in a way does downplay the issue, which in a way does silence those that may feel as if they do not have a voice. That is why frequency, should be part of it, and that is why I personal feel the system that protects these players should not be reactive.

I know there is no perfect system, I do not think anyone is asking for a perfect system just more options that help prevent it from happening even if it is only a little, and within reason. I do not think SE should remove chat, make enemies die in one hit, make everything a one button rotation or whatever far out example someone can come up with. We will never be done with harassment, but at the least we can try to offer some form of protection that does not request in them having to go through such abuse for it to be of use.

Deep down we probably all want the same thing, just sadly when it comes to issues of harassment how often it happens is one of the major factors taken into account before it is even looked at. That is why I say downplaying the whole thing does not serve to help anyone.

As I have said before silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it. Which is what Miste and others are doing when they downplay the frequency. Which is not wrong since I understand for many it is a normalizing deviance, but still it sucks.

[HyoMinPark]

Well this thread certainly made me sit back and stare/research. Oddly enough FFlogs seems to be broken on my char (And I'm content with that :P ) - My 2 cents is this.
Tanks are supposed to tank. Period.
Healers are supposed to heal. Period.
DPS - need I say more?

If the tanks and healers can dps - great...bonus.

I’m just going to copy-paste something another poster said that says this far more eloquently than I can:

My take on it was always this:

A tank can easily hold aggro by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.
A healer can easily keep people alive by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.

... Yet when the DPS pushes only 3 buttons over and over, they're being lazy.

This game, like it or not, is designed for people to push the damage. If you, as a tank or a healer, are doing the bare minimum and not using the rest of your effort to push the damage, I see you as just as bad as the black mage who only uses blizzard 2. You have abilities. You have tools. Not using them is basically saying you don't care about bringing as much to the table as you can.

Why is it okay for two roles to press, at most, 3-4 buttons, but not okay for another? It’s not. That’s the very definition of a double standard.

So long as you are doing your job at its basic form - and the party is getting the job done...you should NEVER be kicked for that.

I get really tired of this argument. Again, how is it acceptable for one role to do absolutely nothing for over half of the dungeon, but for another be expected to do double or triple that? How is it acceptable for healers to “just heal”, but for DPS to press “more than 1-2-3 or else they are lazy”? Double standards.

I also dislike the “the party is getting the job done”/“it’s okay, no one died and you got the duty done” argument. Yeah, sure, no one died during an hour long Skalla run where the tank did baby pulls, the healer didn’t contribute to anything other than an occasional heal, and the DPS didn’t bother to do anything outside of single-targeting 1-2-3 for any group of 3+ mobs...but that doesn’t mean that an hour long Skalla run is okay.

honestly I'm against this parser crap - It leads to opinionated elitist morons who judgmentally condemn random players. Yes - I don't deny that it can help greatly for players who need the help - but its akin to being utterly discriminatory. I have a mentor who uses one - and he's ALWAYS constructive. I'd say he's the exception to the rule. Unless you attack him - then he's got ammo lol. (very experienced and knows his stuff)

I just want to point out the blatant hypocrisy in this statement. You say parsers are the things that lead to “opinionated elitist morons” judging “random players”, but you, right here in this quote, are judging random players and making sweeping generalizations based off of your perception of parsers. It really doesn’t help that you refer to ONE PERSON as the EXCEPTION to your “rule”. That doesn’t really make you any better than the “opinionated elitist morons.”

Not sure if what I said made sense....and honestly people who think otherwise can jump off a virtual cliff cause I play for fun and enjoyment...not for the speedrun addicts. (Pull more! (healer says this and promptly dies afterwards....yep..been there done that))

So does everyone else. For some, it is NOT fun carrying people that refuse to do the bare minimum. Why should they have to put up with it? Why should their gaming experience have to be ruined in favor of catering to the lazier types of players?

EDIT/ADDITION:

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.

Quite honestly, I remain silent most of the time as well, because of the very thing you said in your last paragraph. Though I can easily tell, especially when it’s a job I main like BRD or AST or RDM, when a player is doing something wrong, I have stopped giving out advice because I’m either told to “shut the **** up”, “**** off”, “you don’t pay my sub”, or I have concerns about being reported over suspected parsing, even though the problems I see are ones that do not require a parser to see. It really should not be that way.

I can clearly see, for example, when DPS aren’t AOEing—the full TP says more than enough, and the rate at which a pack of 10+ dying is a very clear indicator of that. You don’t need a parser to see it, yet people are so quick to jump the gun: “You must be parsing! Reported! Elitist!”

It’s ironically and extremely sad/hilarious the amount of toxicity that is directed towards parser users, or even people that aren’t parsing at all but that are merely suspected of parsing, yet parser users are constantly dictated as the “toxic” or “elitist” players that cause “problems for the community”.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Actively? No. Casually with FC and friends? Yeah. But I do sometimes wander into PUGs or PFs to fill a spot for a friend and I never know if there is a parser running in the group or not. I've known about parsers for a good chunk of my time on FFXIV and honestly flip flop on my thoughts about them. But whether I do the content where they 'matter most' or not doesn't really negate the point at hand

The picture I was trying to paint is the player who only does his daily roulettes and trial roulette. They maybe do some hunts and some triple triad. This type of player I can say with near 100% confidence doesn't know or care what type of shit shows on FFLogs. They are blissfully ignorant. Therefore any singular player who is in this category (which the community frequently mentions is the majority, so let's assume that for a second) really doesn't have a dog in the fight. They aren't affected by it. Good players aren't affected either. So that leaves the middle players. Likely a sizable element of the community, but helps give context to just how infrequent this really is.

I can't outright say it is anything illegal, not without doing a ton of research that would involve some...risky searches. (Cause googling "Is it illegal to X?" never seems suspicious...) But overall, yeah I think if they did switch over to an opt in model, i.e, only people who sign up with FFlogs and use the parser are the ones whose data is recorded and posted to a third party site for a bunch of other people to browse and scrutinize are the only ones whose data is recorded. Yeah, I think that would be a much better option. One that would most likely settle some people's grievances with this stuff. It would settle the harassment argument to a hefty degree, since only people who WANT to be parsed are being parsed and those who don't are left alone. As it stands now though? The whole thing is kinda...squicky to me.

It's not illegal at all.

Opt in model would defeat the entire purpose of it and the fact that you aren't aware of that further contributes to my point above about being blissfully ignorant. That just leaves the notion that you feel 'slighted' over something that doesn't even affect you, which hopefully sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me.

Tell me exactly with specific examples how your data being public on FFLogs is negatively impacting your play experience. You personally. Not your friend's mother/brother/sister cousin, or some guys forum post. You personally.

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

Opt in would destroy the tool. That's why it nor Warcraft logs are that way.

You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best. Don't make it your priority. Make a point. Ok you have less then... 40% mp left. Ok time to start thinking about conservation tactics via letting your dps go and think about healing. Shut the fuck up you don't know how to play healer... Dude... I play every class. You want to give constructive criticism after you see me at work... Go for it. My job comes first. If I'm the tank. I'll tank. I'll stance dance during lul points after a tank buster and I know I have time to switch back to tank stance for the next one. As a healer.... I'll do both healing and dps tell my mp gets to about 50%.. Then.. I drop my dps for healing until my mp gets back to about 80% then I'll dps again. And dps.. Do what you do best. Flame em if you want that's just how I play. And so far. No one has bothered to contradict my style. If it works for you. Go for it. I just wish this whole toxicity of put your balls to the walls for dps would stop.

I can literally solo every single boss in current end game dungeons as a tank. I don't need tank stance to survive tank busters that barely hit me for ANYTHING, even in Savage/EX.

[Awha]

Opt in would destroy the tool. That's why it nor Warcraft logs are that way.

Not really you would still have the ability to use it with like minded players. So how does it destroy that. Adds an extra hoop, but far from destroys the tool. While the data has no impact on me, I love FFLogs. Still does not change that for some it does have a negative impact and that the tools SE has put in place does not protect players from the abuse of said data only provides them the tools to further prevent such abuse from the same player.

An opt-in would make it so you would not have data on the tank that barely pulls 2k dps. For your static or for groups that request them you show them your logs world keeps moving. All the opt-in feature does is that no one will be able to pull the logs on random joe.