Tank dps harrasment

[Awha]

Snip. . .

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that. My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue. Like I said before I hardly ever saw abuse of chat during matches in PvP, most of it was done after the match. It did happen to players while we will never know how large of a player base was effect by this behavior all we know SE took action, and I do feel SE should do something about the toxic nature in PvE. I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

If we want to get into technical and legal things here....FFlogs doesn't need "your" consent. They need SE's consent since all of FFXIV's data including your character belongs to SE, not you.

Nothing to do with FFXIV needs "your" consent since you do not own anything to do with FFXIV. You simply pay subscription in order to be allowed to access and use SE's intellectual property. Your subscription does not entitle you to claim ownership of anything in FFXIV and this includes your character and any data related to your character. Therefore your personal consent is not necessary at all.

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

[Miste]

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that.

Please point out to me where I accuse you as such though? I never said that you want to take it away nor did I infer that in what I said. My recent reply to you is my opinions and it is a general opinion not based on pro or anti parser really.

My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue.

Yeah, I feel that way, what's your point? I already said nothing you say is going to make me alter how I feel. So I already said you shouldn't bother trying. Four years is a long time and I personally know how active I have been so I have precedent for how I feel so yeah...again you are wasting your time.

I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

It's silly to share my experiences and opinions in a discussion forum just because you don't agree with it? Okay, it's fine if you want to think that way, but I also have little reason to listen to you either. I can share my opinions as much as I want to I am not going to stop just because you don't agree with it. I am not undermining anyone I am just sharing my experiences and opinions like everyone else here, you included.

So no I don't think it is silly. My 4 years of experience playing this game and not seeing a single instance of parser abuse against another player casts doubt that this sort of thing happens frequently. My opinion. If it doesn't support your agenda then sorry, but I don't care, and I will share it all the same.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

And? Where did I say you can't ask for that? Go for it. I never mentioned anything to do with fflogs opt in or opt out so how do you even know my stance on it? I actually don't even care. I am neutral. I don't care if fflogs is opt in or opt out so...again wasting time replying to me about it since I don't even care about it.

Like I already told you you are replying to a brick wall here and I openly admit it so that you don't waste your time. You aren't going to get me to change my opinion or get me to stop posting said opinion by trying to shame me into doing so by saying I am being silly and undermining people. It isn't going to work. I proudly believe that people blow parser issues way out of proportion and try to make a big deal out of something very minimal.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone. I am not asking you to change how you view parser's, and I did not mean to say that your experiences as a whole are silly, what I should have said that it is disingenuous for you to feel as if someone that has faced such abuse is blowing how they felt out of proportion. You may feel as if I am wasting my time, but I do not since your position undermines those that have been harassed in our community. Since as a community the frequency of players getting harassed should not matter, the fact that it does happen should be enough for us as a community to band together to try and alleviate it as much as humanly possible. As I have stated numerous times, those of us that pvp have gone through harassment claims. I personally hardly ever saw people being toxic in pvp, still I never doubted the frequency or felt as if it may be been blown out of proportion. Since I do not know how a certain interaction may effect another person. What is a non issue for me may not be the same for another.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion--I did tell them that, that did not go off very well. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from my perspective rarely happens.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

At the very least if someone is asked for logs before joining the group they will now before hand what kind of group they are getting into, instead of being told at the gate like the OP that they are shit and GFTO. Since if it is opt-in they could not just look up the persons name to see if they have log, said the person in question will know to avoid that group all together without having their bubble popped. Though if they start to poke the bear and try to join said group without logs and under perform then at that point idk what to say. While harassment should be taken seriously there is a limit to a person patients and I get that.

While not in that post in others I have said that such a fix would not solve much of anything, such as the removal of chat from pvp, but at the very least it offers some protection. Which is more then what is offered now. You are right though nothing we can do as a whole will eliminate such behavior just like the how the removal of chat from pvp really did not solve much of anything, instead it simply made it less apparent, which is sometimes enough to keep the willfully ignorant at peace.

I am just basing this off of what I have seen happen to friends and guild mates and what I have done to players. I am impatient person and at times let my emotions get the better of me and become a toxic prick. I do not know if I am trying to create a safe space, but maybe a space where the willfully ignorant can retain their ignorance and enjoy the game. I guess that is a safe space. RIP really did not go in wanting to create a safe space, just wanted to point out that this does happen to plays, and to some players fairly often.

I guess the short of it is what I have been trying to say this whole time is that harassment is harassment, and no matter the frequency it should be taken seriously no matter on the subject or amount effected. Ignoring the issues because it may be impossible to solve just does not seem fair. From a personal perspective I do not agree with the chat removal from pvp, and in my time playing I rarely ever saw people being toxic, competitive yeah though that is riddled with bias. Still I respect SE for taking a stand and listening to the concerns of those that had them, no matter how small the sample size was.

[Miste]

The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone.

I was not hostile or defensive in any of my responses until the most recent reply. My last reply, yes a bit, I was getting irritated because of you telling me it is silly for me to post my experiences and opinions.

So you are imagining a tone in my text that wasn't there at all until you posted things that could be seen as hostile. IE: calling it silly that I was posting my opinions and experiences and accusing me of undermining people. Most people would get a bit irritated at that and I am also still a bit irritated due to this reply of yours as well which I will explain below.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from what I can rarely happens.

No I don't see and if you are using the definition of disingenuous to claim I am biased then....okay? I already said it is my experiences and my opinion which an opinion is always biased anyway, that's why it is an opinion, so what exactly are you trying to say?

To me it seems you are trying to say that if my opinions and experiences happen to be against someone elses then I shouldn't post it because I would be undermining their objective? Does that seem fair? I can't post my experiences or opinions in an open discussion on a forum because they happen to highlight the possibility that parser harassment isn't that widespread or frequent at all? I mean pretty sure everyone else here is openly sharing all of their opinions and experiences so why can't I?

Why would you even compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? That is not even remotely similar or on the same level at all so it is pointless to use that as an example. Also your view of me is incorrect. I would never say that to someone who spoke of harassment of any kind. I would listen and give them support and then advise them to blacklist and report to a GM. So you have made some severely incorrect assumptions about me likely because you know absolutely nothing about me.

So you may be neutral, but the very fact you are willing to say that peoples claims regarding such abuse are being blown out of proportion show otherwise. As a community we should try to foster some sense of camaraderie. I do not know

I am neutral about your fflogs opt in thing, which I clearly stated that was what I was neutral about. I don't think you are fully understanding me because at this point you are making many incorrect assessments and not comprehending my point of view.

Not only did you misunderstand that but also the blown out of proportion thing. When I said that I meant that I believe people blow out of proportion the frequency aspect of it to try to make it into a bigger widespread occurrence than it really is. I did not say it was blown out of proportion when it comes to their personal feelings on it. I have already stated that I wish harassment would not happen because I know it hurts people.

Something that bears mentioning though is there are some people who will blow things out of proportion. People sometimes label things as "harassment" when they actually aren't. There is a difference between someone saying "you aren't playing very well" versus "you *insert swear words here* suck". One of those is harassment and the other isn't and some people fail to see the difference. I mean I've had a healer claim I was harassing her simply by trying to give them advice about Cleric Stance and I even said I was just trying to help and they still think I was "harassing" them.

My opinion is based on playing this game for 4 years and never seeing even one single instance of someone being harassed with a parser, so to me my experiences over those 4 years casts doubt on the frequency of parser abuse. That doesn't mean that I am disregarding people who had to deal with harassment, I know it sucks as I have also been harassed by other players numerous times (albeit not parser related), and I wish that sort of thing would not happen whether it be parser related or not, but as a community you have to realize it is nigh impossible to fully stop harassment in a MMO. I believe the occurrence is already very rare when it comes to parsers so there isn't really anything else that can be done and that is my opinion and it isn't going to change unless I suddenly start seeing a lot of parser abuse in-game.

I mean some of this I have already said in an earlier post so I honestly think you aren't taking the time to properly read my replies. It seems to me you have simply latched onto me because I posted experiences and an opinion you didn't like, so you have formed an incorrect judgement about the kind of person I am which is very much highlighted in your responses. Claiming I was hostile when I wasn't, inferring that I would disregard someone else's harassment if they personally told me the circumstances when I wouldn't do that, and inferring that I don't wish the community to be better to each other when I've already stated I wish we could make it better.

If you continue to reply just know I still admit to being a brick wall, at least when it comes to you, because I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda and overall the way you are judging me as a person when you don't even know a single thing about me besides my one opinion that I feel parser abuse does not happen frequently due to my own personal large sample size experience. So after all this it is extremely unlikely I would listen to anything you say or care about your opinions on the topic at hand.

[Awha]

. . . I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda . . .

Once again I am fine with your experience, I was once even in the same position when it came the toxic behavior in PvP. I for one rarely ever saw it, and each thread I saw about I did think to myself that they are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Nevertheless SE took action and tried to do something about, despite knowing nothing they do will ever stop said behavior. Also personally I do not like the removal of chat, but as I said before I do respect SE for taking action even if their solution does great impact those that still PvP. That is neither here nor there. Why would I compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? Because they are both forms of harassment. Pretty sure if I came to the forums stating my regarding sexual harassment ingame as something in 4 years of playing (which I have not played for 4 years) I have never seen. Don't you think more people would feel I am being disingenuous? As in pretending to know less about something then I really know.

Though for a moment let us leave that point aside you say that one player a month is negligible, fair enough where do we draw the line for it to be an issue? When it comes to harassment frequency should not be a factor at all. That is why I am focusing on that point, say if I said the frequency in which in-game sexual harassment is being blown out of proportion, and then chalked it up to human nature people make mistakes, get thicker skin, you do not want to deal with it do not log in etc . . . (Not saying this is your position at all) pretty sure most people would think I am bad shit crazy. That is what people who come to the forums to vent about their parser abuse go through.

Harassment is harassment I said in my post before does not matter on the subject or scope. As I have also said before you are 100% right we never solve the issue, there is no magical fix to make everyone nicer, but at the very least we can try to find way to minimize it even just a little. Look at this thread alone we have people asking the OP why they should carry her, when no where in her post she mentioned she wanted to be carried. So yeah I focused on your out of proportion part to see if you would be able to provide where the line should be drawn for action to be taken. Instead of simply double back on the frequency. Though I do get the sneaking suspicion that if I made the same post that started this back and forth in a threat regarding sexual harassment our roles would be reversed. Since the importance of harassment of any kind should not based around frequency.

Personally I feel as if all forms of harassment should be taken seriously, and never undermine by any degree even if it is simply in passing by saying I doubt how often it comes up, since fact of the matter frequency should never be a factor, point for some reason you keep glossing over. Your experience holds merit, and as a forum sure everything is entitled to their own opinion but just with the sexual harassment or any other form of harassment do you think many would agree with someone if they said I they doubt how frequent occurrence it is. Since that only goes to show they are missing the point. The fact it happens at all is the issue, and something should be done about it, not how often it happens.

So strangely enough your post is attempting to silence those that have gone through such abuse, so you are sort of doing what you claim you dislike. So maybe my claim of your being disingenuous was a little on point. Though you are right this is going nowhere.

[Miste]

So strangely enough your post is attempting to silence those that have gone through such abuse, so you are sort of doing what you claim you dislike. So maybe my claim of your being disingenuous was a little on point.

No I am not. No where have I said to anyone that it is "silly" that they have posted their experience or opinion just because I don't agree with it nor have I told anyone they are undermining people just for posting their opinions and experiences.

I am also not labeling anyone "disingenuous" for just posting their experiences and opinions either which I guess you have clarified the definition you are using. You are accusing me of pretending? So in other words you are claiming I am lying in order to push my own opinion. Well, you're wrong. I have not lied about my experience so I am not pretending anything.

I mean instead of using fancy words that have multiple meanings why not instead just plainly say what you want to say? If you want to call me a liar then call me a liar. I mean I guess it adds to the list: silly, undermining, disingenuous/lying.....got any more? All because I shared what personally happened in my 4 years of playing this game which led me to the opinion I hold about the frequency of parser harassment?

All of these things seem like attempts to shame me into changing my opinion or to make me stop posting my opinion, which I already mentioned this in a previous post. To me that seems like you are trying to silence my opinion because you don't like it.

I mean honestly how does me saying "in my experience parser harassment doesn't seem to happen frequently" silence those who have gone through such abuse? I never said that the abuse never happens. THAT would be trying to silence them by pretending it never happens, but I have not once said such a thing. I have never claimed that it never happens; all I said, multiple times now, is that I doubt the "frequency" of it due to my own personal experiences. This does not silence anyone. It amazes me how ridiculous this has gotten. Ever since my first post that you responded to I have been talking about frequency so don't try to claim I was talking about something else to artificially flip the argument in your favour. I have clarified I have always been talking about frequency.

So you continue to label me all these things and you obviously don't like my opinion and my experience and you either want me to change my opinion or stop posting my opinion, it has to be one or the other. If it isn't one of those reasons then why do you insist on replying to me even though I told you you are arguing with a brick wall who won't listen to you and you have zero chance to change my mind on this? If I am wrong then tell me what is your true goal here? You say you are "fine" with my experience, but I honestly don't believe you. How can you be fine with it and in the same breath accuse me of "pretending"?

So what now? Got any new labels or accusations to throw at me? Keep them coming, it is highly entertaining.

PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

[MoroMurasaki]

PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

Exceedingly well said.

I haven't been in the game for 4 years, closer to two with a large break of about 8 months thrown in the middle, but I do have something of a unique perspective in comparison to a lot of people on the "parser/DPS harrassment doesn't happen much" camp because (comparatively speaking) I am new to any content beyond Expert dungeons. Omega normal was my first set of raids, Susie/Lakshmi/Shinryu were my first EX primals I did on content and I think as someone breaking into this setting for the first time you're more likely to bring out the worst in people due to your inexperience.

I can confidently say that despite my not-very-good non-dungeon healing experience the worst thing I've had happen was someone call me out on my lack of HoT usage in O1S in a Discord voice chat for a PF I joined. It wasn't done in a super friendly way but at the same time I can recognize the difference between someone being very cut-and-dry as opposed to the harrassment people love to screech about lately.

I think if you're going to call something harrassment you have to ask yourself a few basic questions before complaining.

• Was it respectfully delivered? Someone being cold is different from someone being rude.
• Is what they said going to help you improve? If so it seems kind if crazy to comolain about good advice.
• Is what they've brought up relavent to the current situation/does it effect them in a meaningful way? This could mean hitting enrage because you've slacked on DPS or letting a tank die in a dungeon because you've been too busy Holy spamming.

If you can answer any those questions with a yes, however begrudging that yes may be, you are not being harrassed. To claim that any unsolicited advice is harrassment is to live in a world where you're harrassed every day at work by your boss, at school by your teachers and by the weather channel when they tell you to bring an umbrella with you. Sometimes someone is in a position to help improve you/your experience and it's smart to sit back and listen even if you don't immediately love what's being said.

Tl;dr - The issue with the ongoing debate around harrassment feels (to me) more like an issue with what is categorized as harrassment than with the frequency with which real harrassment happens.

To draw a parallel with real life right now I see a lot of people talking about frequent instances of sexual harrassment irl. As someone who has worked in the service industry for the past 10 years (so since I could legally work) I can say instances of sexual harrassment for me have been incredibly few and far between.

When I read further into this apparent 'sexual harrassment epidemic' I see that the reason my opinion differs here is not because I'm experiencing these things less but rather because the things people arre categorizing as harassment are not things I think of in that light. Everything from whistling at a girl on the street to holding a door open for a woman to giving a compliment on someone's physical appearance is lumped into harassment.

Not to toot my own horn but pretty much every day I go out in public at least some of these things happen but since I'm not looking at them as some kind of grand conspiracy to insult me as a woman and rather just compliments or people being nice I'm not offended.

It's all about perspective people. If you stop looking for monsters maybe the shadows will seem less scary.

Edit: Wow that got ranty. Sorry, I had a long day o.o

[Awha]

Snip . . .

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem and SE tries to do something about the toxic behavior like they did with PvP. You do not see how saying I doubt it happens as people make it out to be does not undermine those that come forward after facing such harassment? I mean at the very last I try to address what your points when I reply, you simply ignore them. The fact it happens means SE needs to try and do something, since clearly telling people to play nice is not cutting it.

Reality is bringing frequency into the equation does undermine the issue since it has to be a wide spread issue for people to look at it and try to solve the issue beyond. People just got to be nice, and report to the a GM and move on. That is clearly not working. It is not about flipping the argument, I bring it up it since I have been waiting for you this whole time to answer the basic question, how often does it have to become for it to be a problem?

That is why I brought in sexual harassment. Since the main issue when someone brings frequency into the equation of harassment, where do you draw line for it to be an issue. Depending the issue people have different quotas so to speak. For some once a month in too much, or others may upwards of 30 times a month. That is why I am focusing on frequency. Since in end we agree on the same points, people should be nicer, but is probably not going to happen. Still don't you see how telling someone that has gone through such abuse that it has not happened enough for it to be considered a serious enough issue to warrant the issue to be looked further into.

More inclined to think that if this was another form of harassment we would not be having this conversation. Do you really not see how telling something that has gone through the abuse, I am sorry I know it sucks, but has not happened enough yet for us to take a deeper look at the problem, so just report them and move on? Tell that to someone that has been sexually harassed. I know you going to say the cannot compare, but in my eyes all forms of harassment are important, from bullying to sexual harassment. They all matter.

That is why I am focus on the frequency aspect, I am just trying to show you how heartless the comment is when it comes to harassment. I know it is your experience, but it is silly to bring frequency since that means that such abuse has to hit a threshold before it will be taken seriously. That is fucked if that is how we view cases of harassment. Has not happened enough to warrant resources going into further examine why such cases of harassment happen and what we can do to somewhat alleviate the issue. I am sorry simply report and move on, or other people would say get good so people to not mock your performance. (Please understand I am not saying for you it has to hit a threshold for it to be taken seriously, but for many it does and for those people they will latch on to that notion and not let gone. They will say do not worry it rarely happens just report and move on. You prob will not deal with that often.) That sucks since for some as stated it does happen a lot, and they are offered no preventive protection or reactive. So do you see how that may hurt someone that goes through such abuse fairly frequent. Remember silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it.

The only line of defense people have to such abuse is to get harassed report and black list said player. So the person has to be harassed first for the tools we have in place to take effect. Silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event

That is not fucked at all.

Since end of the day what percentage of the player base would it have to happen to for it to become a big enough problem.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.