Tank dps harrasment

[HyoMinPark]

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

While the experiences are all going to be anecdotal since no one has actually done any hard research that parsers increase toxic behavior, I have been in groups with some really subpar players (Ex primals and Savage; i.e., content where parsers and parsing actually matter), and I know there are more people than me parsing in there...yet no one ever says anything about them unless it’s something like a tank failing to hold hate, or a healer failing to heal, which are both things that you don’t need a parser to see. The most anyone says is after the bad player leaves, and it’s usually something like “Good riddance; they kept dying” or “Well, that works. They were only pulling 900~1,000 DPS as a BLM anyways”. Never have I seen people actively stand there and harass/berate a player to their face.

The “parser harassment” really does not occur as much as people like to claim it does, even to the “bad players”—the times it does occur, I feel like people blow them out of proportion, and start saying things like “I was harassed once in Expert Roulette over numbers, so parsers are bad and all they do is make people harass everyone all the time, and people that parse all need to be banned”.

I’ve seen once instance with a person saying something negative about an individual’s DPS numbers, and they weren’t doing so hot themselves. It happened in a Zurvan Ex bird farm (which, that fight already brought out the worst in everyone so), and a MCH was harassing a SMN about “missing 20 times” and “having crappy DPS”. And really, the only reason the individual’s numbers were bad was because they were lacking accuracy for the fight; other than that, their rotation was fine (according to my friend who was also there, and who was a SMN main). They certainly did more than a lot of other SMNs I had encountered in Heavensward (by this, I mean that they actually helped the healers raise dead players).

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

You may feel like people blow it out of proportion when it does happen, and

Snip . . .

you may feel it is not a common thing because you do not see it.

These are both fair points, but for one I rarely saw toxic behavior in PvP does that make it any more of an issue to certain players? Probably not. That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much. It is a great tool, I use to raid hardcore back in WoW pushing for world and server firsts, though I really have no desire nor commitment to enter a new raiding scene. I do understand the value the tool provides to further ones play. Still people do abuse it, and no matter how infrequent the two of you may feel it happens still does not chance the fact that said issues do happen to players, and for the players that it does happen to it is big issue that truly effects their enjoyment of the game.

Do I wish people had thicker skin and took things in stride? Yeah would make everything much easier, and we probably would still have chat enabled in PvP. Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them. I willing to bet it happens often to my friends cause they are far below avenge, I mean one of them sicks in tank stance and only uses their enmity combo, and yeah you do not need a meter to see that people are under-preforming, the meter just adds insult to injury. The easiest fix would be to make fflogs opt in instead of opt out, or make it so the data shown on the site is only your personal data. It would not fix the core issue, but like how the pvp chat bad did not fix the so called toxic pvp community at the very least it provided the illusion of it. Which is all a lot of people need.

[Dualgunner]

That point aside let us say that harassment only happens to one player a month, in my honest opinion that is once too much.

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

[Awha]

I agree: one person harassed is one person too many. But it remains unfair to deny people a tool because someone will abuse it: there is not a single tool in the history of mankind that cannot be misused someway to the detriment of people. The same logic could be applied to these forums; to the game itself; to the entire internet. Not to mention, even in absence of parsers, harassment doesn't generally go down, it takes other forms.

Did not mean to infer that I wanted them to get rid of them, my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it, or when it does happen people blow it out of proportion. Though to be fair SE pretty much did that to the PvP community, that aside they should do something to either inform FFlogs to make them opt in instead out or make it so the data shown is only personal. As I said in my other post it would not fix much of anything, but at the very least it would offer the illusion of protection from harassment

[Miste]

my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it

Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them.

Well, to be honest, you aren't going to change my mind about this so there is no point in continuing to try really. If I haven't seen any of it in 4 years of playing it to me that casts a lot of doubt on how frequent it occurs and nothing you say is going to change my mind on this. The only thing that could change my mind would be if my experiences suddenly dramatically change in-game to seeing a lot of parser abuse against other players.

How am I pretending issues never happen?? I never claimed it doesn't happen. All I said was my experience and my opinion that it casts doubt on how "frequent" it is.

One player once a month is negligible and you are free you have your opinion that once a month is too much and I agree I wish it didn't happen at all of course, but this is the internet unfortunately and any MMO are also in this territory. You aren't going to be able to stop people from sometimes being jerks to each other parser or no parser. It would be awesome if we could stop it, but even the nicest people get angry sometimes. Human nature and all that.

If you play MMOs you kind of have to expect to come across some jerks sometimes. Not saying it doesn't suck we have to deal with it, but we do, and the best option is to report them. I totally wish we could all get along better, but if human history up till now has any indication this is an extremely hard thing to accomplish even if we advocate it.

[Awha]

Snip. . .

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that. My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue. Like I said before I hardly ever saw abuse of chat during matches in PvP, most of it was done after the match. It did happen to players while we will never know how large of a player base was effect by this behavior all we know SE took action, and I do feel SE should do something about the toxic nature in PvE. I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

If we want to get into technical and legal things here....FFlogs doesn't need "your" consent. They need SE's consent since all of FFXIV's data including your character belongs to SE, not you.

Nothing to do with FFXIV needs "your" consent since you do not own anything to do with FFXIV. You simply pay subscription in order to be allowed to access and use SE's intellectual property. Your subscription does not entitle you to claim ownership of anything in FFXIV and this includes your character and any data related to your character. Therefore your personal consent is not necessary at all.

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

[Miste]

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that.

Please point out to me where I accuse you as such though? I never said that you want to take it away nor did I infer that in what I said. My recent reply to you is my opinions and it is a general opinion not based on pro or anti parser really.

My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue.

Yeah, I feel that way, what's your point? I already said nothing you say is going to make me alter how I feel. So I already said you shouldn't bother trying. Four years is a long time and I personally know how active I have been so I have precedent for how I feel so yeah...again you are wasting your time.

I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

It's silly to share my experiences and opinions in a discussion forum just because you don't agree with it? Okay, it's fine if you want to think that way, but I also have little reason to listen to you either. I can share my opinions as much as I want to I am not going to stop just because you don't agree with it. I am not undermining anyone I am just sharing my experiences and opinions like everyone else here, you included.

So no I don't think it is silly. My 4 years of experience playing this game and not seeing a single instance of parser abuse against another player casts doubt that this sort of thing happens frequently. My opinion. If it doesn't support your agenda then sorry, but I don't care, and I will share it all the same.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

And? Where did I say you can't ask for that? Go for it. I never mentioned anything to do with fflogs opt in or opt out so how do you even know my stance on it? I actually don't even care. I am neutral. I don't care if fflogs is opt in or opt out so...again wasting time replying to me about it since I don't even care about it.

Like I already told you you are replying to a brick wall here and I openly admit it so that you don't waste your time. You aren't going to get me to change my opinion or get me to stop posting said opinion by trying to shame me into doing so by saying I am being silly and undermining people. It isn't going to work. I proudly believe that people blow parser issues way out of proportion and try to make a big deal out of something very minimal.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

[Shurrikhan]

never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.