Tank dps harrasment

[akaneakki]

I just did an expert and I was actually so happy. The WHM I knew wasnt super confident on dpsing but they did!! DRG did crazy amount of dps same with the smn. The best part is we ran it fairly quick, we were already done with second boss when we only been 7min into the dungeon. I never expect anyone to play as good as they did, but honestly it's been a while I've seen melee dps aoe a lot, like the DRG did and a smn who actually use bane and aoe. This is something I love to see and honestly I was fine with how the WHM ACTUALLY TRIED to do some damage. Mad respect for that.

[Miste]

I get this feeling you think I feel as if SE should remove tools that help players from the game, not sure why no where did I ask for that.

Please point out to me where I accuse you as such though? I never said that you want to take it away nor did I infer that in what I said. My recent reply to you is my opinions and it is a general opinion not based on pro or anti parser really.

My post was simply made because you feel as if because you do not see it that somehow makes it any less of an issue.

Yeah, I feel that way, what's your point? I already said nothing you say is going to make me alter how I feel. So I already said you shouldn't bother trying. Four years is a long time and I personally know how active I have been so I have precedent for how I feel so yeah...again you are wasting your time.

I am not trying to change your mind as to how you feel per-se but you must see how silly it is to undermine another players issue simply because you feel it does not happen enough to warrant a response or action from SE.

It's silly to share my experiences and opinions in a discussion forum just because you don't agree with it? Okay, it's fine if you want to think that way, but I also have little reason to listen to you either. I can share my opinions as much as I want to I am not going to stop just because you don't agree with it. I am not undermining anyone I am just sharing my experiences and opinions like everyone else here, you included.

So no I don't think it is silly. My 4 years of experience playing this game and not seeing a single instance of parser abuse against another player casts doubt that this sort of thing happens frequently. My opinion. If it doesn't support your agenda then sorry, but I don't care, and I will share it all the same.

Having SE reach out to the people running fflogs are willing to make them opt in instead of out, and if not having it so SE makes it so the data is all personal, and only personal data can be uploaded will have little effect on the players as a whole, but at the very least will offer some form of protection to those that have issue with it. Like the chat removal in pvp, does not fix much of anything but does offer some protection and in the end that is better then doing nothing.

And? Where did I say you can't ask for that? Go for it. I never mentioned anything to do with fflogs opt in or opt out so how do you even know my stance on it? I actually don't even care. I am neutral. I don't care if fflogs is opt in or opt out so...again wasting time replying to me about it since I don't even care about it.

Like I already told you you are replying to a brick wall here and I openly admit it so that you don't waste your time. You aren't going to get me to change my opinion or get me to stop posting said opinion by trying to shame me into doing so by saying I am being silly and undermining people. It isn't going to work. I proudly believe that people blow parser issues way out of proportion and try to make a big deal out of something very minimal.

[Taika]

Apparently a friend of mine just did an expert roulette with a tank who had taken the teachings of this thread (and the others...) into their heart: they had been randomly AFKing throughout the run, first getting hate from stuff and then running next to a gate to afk while the rest of the party was killing stuff. Keep up the good work non-DPS tanks and healers, you're starting to gain influence!

[Bourne_Endeavor]

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone. I am not asking you to change how you view parser's, and I did not mean to say that your experiences as a whole are silly, what I should have said that it is disingenuous for you to feel as if someone that has faced such abuse is blowing how they felt out of proportion. You may feel as if I am wasting my time, but I do not since your position undermines those that have been harassed in our community. Since as a community the frequency of players getting harassed should not matter, the fact that it does happen should be enough for us as a community to band together to try and alleviate it as much as humanly possible. As I have stated numerous times, those of us that pvp have gone through harassment claims. I personally hardly ever saw people being toxic in pvp, still I never doubted the frequency or felt as if it may be been blown out of proportion. Since I do not know how a certain interaction may effect another person. What is a non issue for me may not be the same for another.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion--I did tell them that, that did not go off very well. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from my perspective rarely happens.

Making FFlogs opt in accomplishes nothing. Those who care about parsing will ask for your logs and kick should you decline. SE doesn't care if a site maths out the information readily available in battle logs. They only care if it's used to ridicule players, thus the "keep it to yourself" policy. Bluntly stated, this sounds like you're just wanting to cultivate a silly safe space because some people can't handle they're on the bottom. The amount of actual in-game ridicule is rare. It only gets overstated here due to some people's dislike for FFlogs.

At the very least if someone is asked for logs before joining the group they will now before hand what kind of group they are getting into, instead of being told at the gate like the OP that they are shit and GFTO. Since if it is opt-in they could not just look up the persons name to see if they have log, said the person in question will know to avoid that group all together without having their bubble popped. Though if they start to poke the bear and try to join said group without logs and under perform then at that point idk what to say. While harassment should be taken seriously there is a limit to a person patients and I get that.

While not in that post in others I have said that such a fix would not solve much of anything, such as the removal of chat from pvp, but at the very least it offers some protection. Which is more then what is offered now. You are right though nothing we can do as a whole will eliminate such behavior just like the how the removal of chat from pvp really did not solve much of anything, instead it simply made it less apparent, which is sometimes enough to keep the willfully ignorant at peace.

I am just basing this off of what I have seen happen to friends and guild mates and what I have done to players. I am impatient person and at times let my emotions get the better of me and become a toxic prick. I do not know if I am trying to create a safe space, but maybe a space where the willfully ignorant can retain their ignorance and enjoy the game. I guess that is a safe space. RIP really did not go in wanting to create a safe space, just wanted to point out that this does happen to plays, and to some players fairly often.

I guess the short of it is what I have been trying to say this whole time is that harassment is harassment, and no matter the frequency it should be taken seriously no matter on the subject or amount effected. Ignoring the issues because it may be impossible to solve just does not seem fair. From a personal perspective I do not agree with the chat removal from pvp, and in my time playing I rarely ever saw people being toxic, competitive yeah though that is riddled with bias. Still I respect SE for taking a stand and listening to the concerns of those that had them, no matter how small the sample size was.

[Miste]

The reason I said I had such a feeling was because you are getting so defensive on the topic, though that may have to do with my reading of your text but it does seem to carry a hostile tone.

I was not hostile or defensive in any of my responses until the most recent reply. My last reply, yes a bit, I was getting irritated because of you telling me it is silly for me to post my experiences and opinions.

So you are imagining a tone in my text that wasn't there at all until you posted things that could be seen as hostile. IE: calling it silly that I was posting my opinions and experiences and accusing me of undermining people. Most people would get a bit irritated at that and I am also still a bit irritated due to this reply of yours as well which I will explain below.

I mean you do have to see how having a position that undermines another persons issue is disingenuous. While far from the same subject, that is like me telling a friend that is feeling sexual harnessed, meh that rarely happens in-game you are blowing it out of proportion. While the latter is clearly leaps and bounds more pertinent, still a cause of harassment that from what I can rarely happens.

No I don't see and if you are using the definition of disingenuous to claim I am biased then....okay? I already said it is my experiences and my opinion which an opinion is always biased anyway, that's why it is an opinion, so what exactly are you trying to say?

To me it seems you are trying to say that if my opinions and experiences happen to be against someone elses then I shouldn't post it because I would be undermining their objective? Does that seem fair? I can't post my experiences or opinions in an open discussion on a forum because they happen to highlight the possibility that parser harassment isn't that widespread or frequent at all? I mean pretty sure everyone else here is openly sharing all of their opinions and experiences so why can't I?

Why would you even compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? That is not even remotely similar or on the same level at all so it is pointless to use that as an example. Also your view of me is incorrect. I would never say that to someone who spoke of harassment of any kind. I would listen and give them support and then advise them to blacklist and report to a GM. So you have made some severely incorrect assumptions about me likely because you know absolutely nothing about me.

So you may be neutral, but the very fact you are willing to say that peoples claims regarding such abuse are being blown out of proportion show otherwise. As a community we should try to foster some sense of camaraderie. I do not know

I am neutral about your fflogs opt in thing, which I clearly stated that was what I was neutral about. I don't think you are fully understanding me because at this point you are making many incorrect assessments and not comprehending my point of view.

Not only did you misunderstand that but also the blown out of proportion thing. When I said that I meant that I believe people blow out of proportion the frequency aspect of it to try to make it into a bigger widespread occurrence than it really is. I did not say it was blown out of proportion when it comes to their personal feelings on it. I have already stated that I wish harassment would not happen because I know it hurts people.

Something that bears mentioning though is there are some people who will blow things out of proportion. People sometimes label things as "harassment" when they actually aren't. There is a difference between someone saying "you aren't playing very well" versus "you *insert swear words here* suck". One of those is harassment and the other isn't and some people fail to see the difference. I mean I've had a healer claim I was harassing her simply by trying to give them advice about Cleric Stance and I even said I was just trying to help and they still think I was "harassing" them.

My opinion is based on playing this game for 4 years and never seeing even one single instance of someone being harassed with a parser, so to me my experiences over those 4 years casts doubt on the frequency of parser abuse. That doesn't mean that I am disregarding people who had to deal with harassment, I know it sucks as I have also been harassed by other players numerous times (albeit not parser related), and I wish that sort of thing would not happen whether it be parser related or not, but as a community you have to realize it is nigh impossible to fully stop harassment in a MMO. I believe the occurrence is already very rare when it comes to parsers so there isn't really anything else that can be done and that is my opinion and it isn't going to change unless I suddenly start seeing a lot of parser abuse in-game.

I mean some of this I have already said in an earlier post so I honestly think you aren't taking the time to properly read my replies. It seems to me you have simply latched onto me because I posted experiences and an opinion you didn't like, so you have formed an incorrect judgement about the kind of person I am which is very much highlighted in your responses. Claiming I was hostile when I wasn't, inferring that I would disregard someone else's harassment if they personally told me the circumstances when I wouldn't do that, and inferring that I don't wish the community to be better to each other when I've already stated I wish we could make it better.

If you continue to reply just know I still admit to being a brick wall, at least when it comes to you, because I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda and overall the way you are judging me as a person when you don't even know a single thing about me besides my one opinion that I feel parser abuse does not happen frequently due to my own personal large sample size experience. So after all this it is extremely unlikely I would listen to anything you say or care about your opinions on the topic at hand.

[Awha]

. . . I honestly don't have much respect for someone who seems to be attempting to silence someone elses opinion just because it happens to be unfavourable for their agenda . . .

Once again I am fine with your experience, I was once even in the same position when it came the toxic behavior in PvP. I for one rarely ever saw it, and each thread I saw about I did think to myself that they are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Nevertheless SE took action and tried to do something about, despite knowing nothing they do will ever stop said behavior. Also personally I do not like the removal of chat, but as I said before I do respect SE for taking action even if their solution does great impact those that still PvP. That is neither here nor there. Why would I compare sexual harassment to parser harassment? Because they are both forms of harassment. Pretty sure if I came to the forums stating my regarding sexual harassment ingame as something in 4 years of playing (which I have not played for 4 years) I have never seen. Don't you think more people would feel I am being disingenuous? As in pretending to know less about something then I really know.

Though for a moment let us leave that point aside you say that one player a month is negligible, fair enough where do we draw the line for it to be an issue? When it comes to harassment frequency should not be a factor at all. That is why I am focusing on that point, say if I said the frequency in which in-game sexual harassment is being blown out of proportion, and then chalked it up to human nature people make mistakes, get thicker skin, you do not want to deal with it do not log in etc . . . (Not saying this is your position at all) pretty sure most people would think I am bad shit crazy. That is what people who come to the forums to vent about their parser abuse go through.

Harassment is harassment I said in my post before does not matter on the subject or scope. As I have also said before you are 100% right we never solve the issue, there is no magical fix to make everyone nicer, but at the very least we can try to find way to minimize it even just a little. Look at this thread alone we have people asking the OP why they should carry her, when no where in her post she mentioned she wanted to be carried. So yeah I focused on your out of proportion part to see if you would be able to provide where the line should be drawn for action to be taken. Instead of simply double back on the frequency. Though I do get the sneaking suspicion that if I made the same post that started this back and forth in a threat regarding sexual harassment our roles would be reversed. Since the importance of harassment of any kind should not based around frequency.

Personally I feel as if all forms of harassment should be taken seriously, and never undermine by any degree even if it is simply in passing by saying I doubt how often it comes up, since fact of the matter frequency should never be a factor, point for some reason you keep glossing over. Your experience holds merit, and as a forum sure everything is entitled to their own opinion but just with the sexual harassment or any other form of harassment do you think many would agree with someone if they said I they doubt how frequent occurrence it is. Since that only goes to show they are missing the point. The fact it happens at all is the issue, and something should be done about it, not how often it happens.

So strangely enough your post is attempting to silence those that have gone through such abuse, so you are sort of doing what you claim you dislike. So maybe my claim of your being disingenuous was a little on point. Though you are right this is going nowhere.

[Misurugi]

i really should stop looking at these threads when I see um. They just... aggravate the unholy hell out of me. I can tank with out tank stance... Tank buster, WHAP. What the hell you stupid healer how come you didn't heal me... You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best. Don't make it your priority. Make a point. Ok you have less then... 40% mp left. Ok time to start thinking about conservation tactics via letting your dps go and think about healing. Shut the fuck up you don't know how to play healer... Dude... I play every class. You want to give constructive criticism after you see me at work... Go for it. My job comes first. If I'm the tank. I'll tank. I'll stance dance during lul points after a tank buster and I know I have time to switch back to tank stance for the next one. As a healer.... I'll do both healing and dps tell my mp gets to about 50%.. Then.. I drop my dps for healing until my mp gets back to about 80% then I'll dps again. And dps.. Do what you do best. Flame em if you want that's just how I play. And so far. No one has bothered to contradict my style. If it works for you. Go for it. I just wish this whole toxicity of put your balls to the walls for dps would stop.

[Dualgunner]

Did you just copy your post over from the other thread? Lol

[SenorPatty]

Welp

This thread has successfully made think I should find friends. Maybe even a fc.

There's so much...muck--that's the word I'm gonna use, muck--in this thread, I can't even.

This thread taught me when you're pugging, its all business first. Via a third party global parsing website of all things. I'd like to be parsed for sure. But I'd like to be parsed by the right people. Genuine people. People who won't sugarcoat but also won't shut you out from the start. That's pug business all right. I'd like to be parsed by people you know and want you to succeed at things, just as you want them too. Have a laugh at it too.

Pugs can't do that. And that's fine. But its a bit cold.

This thread is cold as hell.

I see raid mentality leak into casual content. Some people will tell you that's good: it reduces the enabling of bad play. Some people will tell you its bad: its toxic or elitism.

All I know is when you put a stranger among other strangers, the only thing everyone can fall back to is efficiency. Everyone's got their own level of efficiency. Some pure hard numbers. Some just want the clear of the week. Some its 3 wipes and you're out.

When you got no time to waste, sometimes the process of elimination to find the efficient people for the job is having their resume's up for everyone to see first. Credentials. I don't find it good or bad, just...very buisiness like. But that's the pug world.

So for me, I don't mind doing better. I don't mind pushing the hard numbers. But I don't think I want to do that for pugs.

I want to do that for actual friends. A static full of friends for certain. Or an Fc. Avoid all that...gray stuff pugs seem to carry around when its time for raids. I don't want to be checking people's parses that I don't know for a game. Its too hard, if you catch my drift. For a friend, yes. Cuz I know that we would be well-meaning and we'd both seek to improve ourselves.

Sorry if this post sounds weird as well but re-reading this thread from start to finish made me feel like I just read a novel where pyrrhic victories and downer endings come abundant.