Tank dps harrasment

[Fhaerron]

Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

[NephthysVasudan]

Each "role" is no more than "having point" on and the superior efficiency to do something. If that person can still do it, then because they are more efficient, you let them. You are not, however, free from concerns of party or personal survival just because you are not specialized for mitigation or restoration. Nor are a third or more of your abilities ornaments on a tank or healer.

It makes sense in a siege shooter that you'd have the guy with the shotgun or SMG breach. That doesn't mean he does nothing else. One guy you really don't want to have die first may be carrying the medpacks. That doesn't mean medpacks are his only responsibility.

Stop mistaking specialization for an exhaustive job description. Stop.

Learn to read posts in full before you start replying to them.

[akaneakki]

Learn to read posts in full before you start replying to them.

They did. But I will ask you this question. Nobody dies, healers does more dps than both dps in a dungeon, care to explain why? You said it yourself; a dps job is to dps, yet they fail it because they are doing lower than the healer or in some cases tanks. So are you saying that the dps got carried because the healer managed to do 2 jobs at once? Or are you saying the dps is very bad?

[HoodRat]

Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

No, it is useless unless you're still learning a fight or something goes horribly wrong. The mitigation from tank stance is unneeded and, as for enmity, shirk and shade walker go a long way to making sure you never need tank stance or even your enmity combo.

[KaldeaSahaline]

Disagreed, and I really don't care this assumption. Being a Tank does not make you the defacto leader. You control the flow just as much as everyone else, and the one with the greater experience should, in any situation, be the one holding the reigns.

I personally agree with you. My statement was merely a jest towards the community at large. It's a comment echo'd quite frequently that it is the tanks responsibility to determine pace.

Everything you just listed is rather superfluous. Yes, you can say I learned more than a handful of things that day, good and bad. But I suppose it's a matter of the value of what was learned. If anything, I learned not to trust those people as much, yay. And "learning to mass pull" is a technicality, as you learn that when you learn to pull from the first time. You're merely applying your knowledge and tools expansively.

It was through that fear that I learned to play other jobs. I wanted to keep playing the game but avoid tanks so I learned a few DPS and even attempted healers. Fear can be just as much a constructive force as any other. If anything worthwhile I learned, it's that. But I will never want anyone to be beholden to my situation;

All of this speaks to my point more than yours IMO. Yes it was a PAINFUL ordeal, but through that adversity you grew to be a better player and grew as an individual as well as raised questions about things you thought you knew/understood (quality of friends, their skill, your skill, etc.).

I would say I'm sorry for your struggles but I am not. It's led us to meeting and this discussion and I have learned a lot from you.

We have no way to know if your conclusion is correct because we haven't played with him. We dont know his group. We don't (and can't possibly) have the full context of any log on there.

Simply go review the logs. Don't make excuses about group, or his personality etc.. The logs contain every party member (so comp) and their rotations, key presses, buff/debuff uptimes, exact positioning on the field, as well as resource usage/generation down to the GCD.

I watched someone state an incredibly flawed statement and when reviewing their character it was fairly obvious that given their statement and their credentials that they lacked the necessary qualifications to make such a statement WITHOUT reproach.

The idea that you think you can dismiss someone (who I happen to also disagree with) on the basis of their fflogs page is asinine and just plain rude.

I dismissed his statement, not him personally. I used data about him personally to do, but it was not a personal attack. Try not to let emotion cloud your judgment. I merely wanted to discuss WHY I felt the statement he made was not to be taken seriously by any readers and provided context as to why.

Well, this was unexpected. Earlier in the thread there was discussion that FFLogs could be misused to shame and harrass someone. Now, KaldeaSahaline has done just that. Without provication, she brought up Anguel's O1S log in what was a blatently obvious attempt to shame. Seems to have worked, since Anguel hasn't posted since. Let's look at Kaldea's reasoning...

I stated an objective fact based on QUANTIFIABLE data. That is not harassment or shaming.

...no, that sounds silly too. When in a debate, you attack the point, not the person. The only time the person is attacked is if the attacker is being petty, or finds the point to hard to attack. Honestly, bringing up their log to shame them was uncalled for and as I pointed out above, outright erroneous. And I'm happy to see you catching well-deserved flak over it, even from people that otherwise supported you. In using FFLogs to shame him, you have single-handedly embodied all the concerns raised about FFLogs earlier in this thread.

To be fair, the amount of flak I got was about a 1/3th less than you get for each one of your posts lol.

I explained why his statement about what qualifies as a good tank was not to be taken seriously, because he himself was not a good tank. Was my analysis of his logs wrong? If so I will gladly apologize. Let me know.

There are serval reasons why someones log is bad; group comp, uptime as melee (which is a tanks job as well, to keep the boss to melee as much as possible) ilvl etc. While that been said, there is only so much you can output and do while having all of that, the real thing you need is skill.

All of those things are easily identifiable in logs so they're not reasons/excuses. I'll also echo this, a CONSISTENT 7th percentile player isn't going to be good with a better comp or a tank moving a boss a little less (which isn't really a thing in EX/Savage content).

Not tracking ilvl though is a huge detractor of FFLogs IMO. Agreed on the skill bit (and really this game's floor is astronomically high). All you need to do is push buttons as frequently as you're supposed too (they don't even need to be the right ones) and you'll be out of gray.

I don't compare logs of mine against people who kill bosses 2 and a half minutes faster. That'd be stupid. I don't compare logs that don't have a NIN if I do. This is basic log review 101 (I'll concede a large majority of FF14 probably don't know just how fancy and in-depth the tool really is, as evidenced by this thread).

I was curious and had to look, but he died 1 time as well, so you have to count that too.

Yes I am aware of that and accounted for that. He was dead at 9:12 and the fight lasted until 9:50. He was dead exactly 38 seconds which cost him exactly 98 DPS from death to kill, again all in the log and easy to identify. There's a ton more stuff I reviewed like buff overlap/uptime to determine what buffs he would have had (had he lived) and their previous interaction on his DPS to determine whether the total value would have risen, fallen, or stagnated until enrage (it would have fallen slightly btw).

From that point they now have to work out of the negative because ill fortune saw fit to have only their two really bad runs recorded and not a majority of their decent-good runs, and now it's a game of not just proving your worth, but now proving you're not shit. And most folks aren't so open-minded to give leeway to someone with shown bad records unless there is evidence that they have run more times than logged.

Let's say you killed something 5 times, but only 2 of your worst logs made it up.

Logic tells me that not only are you (not you personally, you as in whomever) not a consistent performer, but you're not even a strong performer. Also, all you need a singular good log as the history page shows your historical best overall. So if you have 1 really good run and 3 bad ones you'll pass most PF checks, but I likely wouldn't recruit you based on performance consistency for like a static.

If they aren't aware of the logs, why should they care about them? Obviously they're not then excluded from the runs because of their logs either.

This is one of the more important points. Most of the people enraged in this thread don't even set foot in Susano/Lakshmi EX so they aren't being excluded or harassed over this data anyway.

If a person is actively running Savage, what are the chances that (1) only their really bad runs get uploaded and (2) they're actually removed from parties because of those logs? Do you know of such incidents? Is there anyone in this thread, for example, who knows for certain (has seen parses) that they're generally doing much better than their super low logs show, and that they have been removed from groups because of this? It just seems so unlikely to me that a person would have this kind of terrible luck. And even if they would, like I said, it would be quite easy to fix simply by running the content and asking someone to upload the runs when the group is about to start.

So, for a scenario that seems to be really unlikely in the first place, and one that can easily fixed for a person who would happen to care about it, this seems like case of much noise (and forum drama) for nothing.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

I just feel saying "you did less damage than your co tank, and less damage than me in another log while I had a really low ilvl, what's your ilvl? your post should be taken with a grain of salt" is a bit too back handed for me to really defend. The original post never intended that their mindset was correct or "right," just how they viewed it. There are plenty of ways to correct someone on their mindset or even address they do not understand their class fundamentals, and that wasn't one of them. It wasn't even proper correction or criticism at all. Just flat out addressing that someone performed worse. So while I agree with you, this definitely was not that case. Also, I know they weren't replying just to brag, I'm just saying that it could sound that way.

It was not an intent to brag. My logs are up for anyone to look. I have my good days and bad days like anyone else. I don't make excuses for my mistakes (except that primetime east coast lag baby) and have a ton of room to improve.

I understand that my brevity ruffled some feathers and I am sorry I didn't word it more nicely because some people (not all) are having trouble discussing the actual content of my posts without being driven to emotional responses. I would liked to have avoided that and started off on a better foot.

Here's the bottom line though. He gave a incredibly flawed opinion that I used actual quantifiable data to measure his expertise on the subject. It's fine to comment without a command of mastery, but be prepared like all things in life, to be scrutinized in your position and defend it.

I could say something asinine like the best healers are ones that only heal and don't do any DPS. You could make a plethora of arguments either way to discredit/credit my statement, INCLUDING looking at lodestone and seeing that I don't even have a single max level healer. I still have some insight for sure, but, you could pretty easily refute my opinion based on my character and NOTHING would be wrong about it.

This whole thread about FFLogs being a threat is funny enough but you know it's only taken seriously in a Savage/Ultimate context right? If all you do are your Alliance raids, EX roulettes, EX primals, you got nothing to worry about really. I wonder if all the animosity towards it stems from people actually knowing they could do more but make no effort to actually do more. So they get paranoid and blame logs on fights nobody even care about in a serious environment.

100% on point.

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

Agreed on your other points.

Also was that me in that dungeon run? I vaguely recall a healer telling me that it was ok to pull after that (and I use that exact verbiage sometimes when DPS is so fucking awful that I'm #1/2 and the healer is the other one).

Telling someone that theyre doing poorly isn't harassment.

100% true.

Ok, I have no real dog in the pro/anti parser argument. But can I just say, it is very odd that you have to do this. You shouldn't have to sign into their site to opt out, you should sign into their site to opt in. I don't like the idea of data about me and my performances, being collected without my consent or knowledge. It is unsettling and creepy! I really think that they should switch over to an opt in model rather then collecting data without consent or even someone's knowledge that they are effectively being recorded in someway. I think that would make people a little less antsy about parsers and fflogs.

Do you even do content that this affects you? It sounds like you don't if you're just hearing about it.

Well if this is actually true then there needs to be some changes. Tank Stance exists for a reason and when it becomes useless balance is wrong.

Now this is a fair point to make and I largely agree personally. On the other hand though, keeping it for lower skilled players isn't a bad thing either. How would you re-work it or change it?

Tank stance is not useless, we need it to build up emnity.
As soon as you have some Rage of Halones in (or the WAR/DRK version) you go to DPS stance.
When there is a tank bust you activate tank stance and a CD.
Sometimes it can happen that some crazy high DPS player is catching up on emnity, in that case you go tank stance again and use some more emnity builders then go DPS again.

If tanks had no tank stance then we wouldn't be able to do Omega/Ultimate Bahamuth/ Any other raid.

It's not useless.

I use tank stance literally for 3 GCDs at most a fight, 0 if I am not pulling. I use it occasionally, but that functionality could easily be built into other skills nullifying the rare use my tank stance sees.

Aside from the spelling mistakes which I fixed I want to put this post in my signature, as a fellow tank main, lol. the primary job of a tank is tanking. DPS is a bonus. Yes even in raids.

Also one thing I noticed with FF logs is unless you've done TONS and TONS of ex primals and savage raids your numbers are going to be irrelevant and useless as they seem to have to be manually uploaded by people, which means the sample size will be too small for usage.

While it's true that sample size is important, much like a first impression, a single log is incredibly telling.

No, it is useless unless you're still learning a fight or something goes horribly wrong. The mitigation from tank stance is unneeded and, as for enmity, shirk and shade walker go a long way to making sure you never need tank stance or even your enmity combo.

Yep.

[akaneakki]

I.

I'm giving you credits for replying pretty good there. And yes, I do agree with most of what you said

[StarRosie]

Do you even do content that this affects you? It sounds like you don't if you're just hearing about it.

Actively? No. Casually with FC and friends? Yeah. But I do sometimes wander into PUGs or PFs to fill a spot for a friend and I never know if there is a parser running in the group or not. I've known about parsers for a good chunk of my time on FFXIV and honestly flip flop on my thoughts about them. But whether I do the content where they 'matter most' or not doesn't really negate the point at hand and recently (Thanks a lot due to comments way earlier in this thread...) I have started thinking about that side of FFlogs a little more seriously. How they effectively post data about you without your knowledge or consent and you have to sign into their site to say "Please do not post data about me without my knowledge or consent.", yeah that doesn't sit well with me.

I can't outright say it is anything illegal, not without doing a ton of research that would involve some...risky searches. (Cause googling "Is it illegal to X?" never seems suspicious...) But overall, yeah I think if they did switch over to an opt in model, i.e, only people who sign up with FFlogs and use the parser are the ones whose data is recorded and posted to a third party site for a bunch of other people to browse and scrutinize are the only ones whose data is recorded. Yeah, I think that would be a much better option. One that would most likely settle some people's grievances with this stuff. It would settle the harassment argument to a hefty degree, since only people who WANT to be parsed are being parsed and those who don't are left alone. As it stands now though? The whole thing is kinda...squicky to me.

Effectively what I am trying to say is, I don't care if you are using a parser for personal improvement but I'd really appreciate it if that thing for personal improvement only recorded data about you. I think the easiest way that could be fixed is if FFlogs were to inverse things, the default state for any character's logs would be set to private unless the user is fine with others looking at their logs and sets it to public. That would honestly be the easiest fix that wouldn't require an overhaul of the whole system. Buuuut if they wanted to be madmen, they could overhaul the system to only record people who sign up for logs. And at this point I'm rambling and should be working. Replies to this probably won't be replied to for a while. Have a lovely day all!

[Miste]

my post was mostly aimed towards people that feel it is either not common because they do not see it

Even so I am not going to pretend issues do not not happen because I rarely ever saw them.

Well, to be honest, you aren't going to change my mind about this so there is no point in continuing to try really. If I haven't seen any of it in 4 years of playing it to me that casts a lot of doubt on how frequent it occurs and nothing you say is going to change my mind on this. The only thing that could change my mind would be if my experiences suddenly dramatically change in-game to seeing a lot of parser abuse against other players.

How am I pretending issues never happen?? I never claimed it doesn't happen. All I said was my experience and my opinion that it casts doubt on how "frequent" it is.

One player once a month is negligible and you are free you have your opinion that once a month is too much and I agree I wish it didn't happen at all of course, but this is the internet unfortunately and any MMO are also in this territory. You aren't going to be able to stop people from sometimes being jerks to each other parser or no parser. It would be awesome if we could stop it, but even the nicest people get angry sometimes. Human nature and all that.

If you play MMOs you kind of have to expect to come across some jerks sometimes. Not saying it doesn't suck we have to deal with it, but we do, and the best option is to report them. I totally wish we could all get along better, but if human history up till now has any indication this is an extremely hard thing to accomplish even if we advocate it.

[LalaRu]

No? It's publicly available information

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

Anyone in your groups or even remotely close to you in the game cans see the data that's aggregated by parsers and uploaded to FFLogs.

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

[dotsforlife]

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

The data isn't private once it's uploaded. If don't want people to see trash tier numbers then set yours to private. It's that simple.