Tank dps harrasment

[MoroMurasaki]

Apparently you and I actually agree, outright. My comments have been directed at those asserting that said people should be attacked/kicked, the cry of "DPS or GTFO!" leveled to those in casual content.

Hyperbolic to the point of humor. Your comments have been directed at people who have said improvment is always possible and people should strive to do better (like me) and I've gone back quite a ways and can't find any examples of this "DPS or GTFO!" mentality you claim to argue against.

Why is this even a thread? Let me make it really simple for everyone.
if all you ever do is roulette and pal around with your casual friends, no one cares if you DPS or not as a tank.

People do care. That is why this thread exists. You can say that you don't care or maybe even that your friends don't care, don't attempt to speak for everyone

[KaldeaSahaline]

And i'm a realist. There can be those who will rise, and there will be others who fall. But at the end of the day you're toying with someone else's experience, and from what I understand, potentially without their consent. I'm not saying to let someone live in mediocrity if that is where they dwell, but you're opting to just take the reigns of someone else's experience for what seems more like for yourself than them, rather than offering that guiding hand.

As the tank it's kind of my job to take the reigns on their experience wouldn't you say?

The quote before was purely metaphorical, not that I had assumed it's what you would say exactly. But what you would say bothers me. You thought they could handle it, but you say you just plunge head first without that gauging glance, so you only assumed. It may be splitting hairs but its assumptions like those that leads others, whom may not be as good-spirited as you, into a bad situation and taking it out on others. If they knew what you're saying now, would they be happy to know you just kinda winged it screaming Leeroy?

You made several assumptions and an incorrect statement here. Let me clarify/correct:

1) I didn't say THEY couldn't handle it. I said WE. It is a team effort.

2) I do not close my eyes, not look at my party or buffs and run willy nilly. I look at gear/HP values while the healer runs their protect macro.

3) I will NEVER let anyone in my party harass someone. Criticism and being told something you don't like isn't harassment though. If someone say a DPS blamed the healer for that and it was 100% the 2 DPS doing sub 2k AOE dps that caused us to wipe I will call them out on that. I will defend that healer, even though it is part their and my problem (remember team). I do not stand for misinformation or blame shifting. I own my mistakes, and I expect others to do the same. Just like I put in effort and I expect others to do the same.

Back around early-mid ARR I had joined the game, after a time between 1.xx and then, and I picked up MRD/WAR. My experiences with MMOs were slim-to-none, the concept of tank honestly was new-ish to me. I knew of the idea of tanks playing other games that weren't MMOs, but they can cast a different light. My time leveling MRD though was well enough, I was enjoying the idea of the tank; this was of course leveling to 50, so function was limited to just being tanky. Come to reaching 50 my world is opened to end game and all its quirks, among them being the mass pulls. Up until that point I was never pressed to mass pull or pull more than a camp at a time, it was never asked and I never considered it. And obviously would have been near impossible with what gear is available. So my FC mates at the time are explaining to me that this has become an almost necessary thing, because at the time the tomes farms were all about spamming the dungeons then, like Brayflox(Hard) and running them as fast as possible.

The idea of this was unsettling at first; I quite liked the careful and controlled style I was used to, so now this concept was like going from 0-60. Now being a fresh 50, gear wasn't just pouring from everywhere at that time and it was a little bit of work if you didn't really know what you were doing. But I gathered up what I could through MB and elsewhere and worked up the courage to press on into the big scary world of the Hard dungeons and whatnot. First run I did was with FC mates, and when I ran with them they were VERY pushy about me pulling large packs, not necessarily in a mean way, but more I got two experienced people telling to just do it, that they had it handled, and I honestly had no idea what was going on. Hindsight would tell me not to give into the peer-pressure, but I did.

The end result was obvious; my gear was nowhere near enough, I couldn't handle the damage and ended up in the dirt. What really nailed it in was the one on healer claimed she thought my gear was good enough. Being where she was, she should have easily been able to see I wasn't geared for heavy pulls, but she didn't look, she just assumed. The price of that was what confidence I had was near shattered and I was even more nervous than ever. I learned nothing from that other than my FC mates were butts. At some point after that I got desperate for better gear and decided to just throw myself into dungeon runs again, and it was fine until I came across one of those worst-case-scenario types of the most toxic and spiteful players, who was a BLM and tore me apart. I would get nervous pulling more than one camp, I would pull two, but it wasn't enough for them, they wanted more, so they would pull the camps themselves, and their gear was far superior, it was making the run an absolute nightmare for me. After that I just kinda gave up on WAR for the rest of ARR and all of HW while the tanking style of WAR was so aggressive. I considered the other tanks, but honestly those past experiences just kept me from working up any of that courage for the longest time.

tl;dr - Fresh 50 WAR, shit gear, pressured by FC mates of the time to mass pull. Got wiped, didn't learn a thing other than tanking was scary, later got shit on by BLM potato and got tanking PTSD. Still kinda working through it, tbh.

I appreciate you sharing that experience. I do however completely disagree that you didn't learn a thing. You very clearly learned how to mass pull. You learned what kind of gear wasn't as suitable for it. You learned that your FC mates aren't the best analysts.

Most importantly though, hopefully you learned that YOU have room to improve your tanking because I can say with 100% confidence you didn't do the best you could do either. Maybe you stacked cooldowns too much. Maybe you didn't stagger them properly. Maybe you weren't DPSing down the targets doing the most damage, etc.

Long winded, but it's shown me that putting ALL the pressure on someone can end up really good, or really REALLY bad. And I feel this can be even more extreme when it's with someone you don't know, or maybe it's not as bad because there isn't any built trust to be completely shattered, idk. From that point, I've opted to take it slow and see how willing the one learning is to go once you give them a nudge, not a shove. Someone can push themselves on their own terms as hard as they see fit, but onto others, it's a game of tact.

You let fear shape you Break those chains and be the best you can be. Bring as many people along for the ride as you can and you might be surprised at just how many are glad to be a part of it.

My sole arguement has been there are some people who cannot do better. Not won't, can't. And in regards to casual content, my line for minimum is tank hold adds, healer keep people alive. Casual content is casual. I do not approve of or endorse laziness. If people can do better, they should. But I'm not about to attack or kick people in casual content that are doing they best they can and accomplishing the goal SE has stated for their job.

Sadly, at this point, I feel we're all just going in circles here.

I agree on the disconnect. it's logical and fits. I am not 100% sold that some people just cannot get better though. However, if you're saying you're ok with them doing the bare minimum that is honestly synonymous with being lazy, so you're kind of contradicting yourself.

Personally speaking I don't care what a tank does in a dungeon as long as he pulls constantly (not stutter stepping, afk, inconsistent pulls) and doesn't die. Aggro is such a non starter for discussion because in casual content a DPS can EASILY survive boss and stray enemy damage output. I mean hell, I've solod almost every single boss from 100-0 in current EX dungeons (haven't tried Skalla yet).

Healers I don't care how much DPS or HPS you do. What I do care is that you TRY to DPS, and you push buttons. If you were a 0DPS healer you will be removed from my party, or I will remove myself. Or if it's an FC mate, I will just refrain from running content with you in the future. As a DPS, if you do not AOE when there are as many mobs as I pull, or your CPM is freakishly low I will call you on it and give you a very brief chance to fix it. I don't mind removing the DPS for deliberately not trying, or again stepping out myself.

ill give my opinion (as a pure tank), for me a MT (tank) must be able to do few things,
1) : keep the hate (its kinda annoying to go in for shinryu EX or any omega savage, and behind told right after joining in "please hold the hate properly"), so this, a good tank must not loose hes target hate not matter what !

2) behind able to withstand incoming damage, when your the OT and you see the MT tanking without the tank stance, and taking HUGE amount off dmg (forcing the heal to overheal ...) is kinda annoying ... (do i have to explain why ? ), its frustrating, to wipe because the tank didnt want to use tank stance, and almost get insta killed everytime (or near death) and blaming healer for not doing theire job ...

thats is for me the prerequist to be a good tank, doing DPS come after those 2 point and ONLY after


and last, for me id prefer staying in tank stance and be sure to tank PROPERLY incoming dmg, and releif the Healing stress, and allow healer to eventually do some more dps if he want to


to end this, i cleared shinryu EX with a full grp of I320 ppl, but i keep seeing grp with I330+ wiping miserably in front of it (failing to kill heart in time, adds, etc etc) so yes its cool to have someone that can do some point dmg, but from what im seeing its DEFINITLY REQUIRED, whats is needed its player with brains that is a must have !


PS : srry for my poor English ^^

You did almost 1/3 the DPS of your co-tank in O1S today. I did almost 30% MORE DPS than you do now when I was ilvl 298 doing Lakshmi EX. I'd be curious what ilvl you are.

Your definition of what qualifies as a good tank is to be taken with a grain of salt. I apologize for being blunt, but it needs to be said.

[MoroMurasaki]

You did almost 1/3 less DPS than your co-tank in O1S today. I did almost 30% MORE DPS than you do now when I was ilvl 298 doing Lakshmi EX. I'd be curious what ilvl you are.

Your definition of what qualifies as a good tank is not to be taken with a grain of salt. I apologize for being blunt, but it needs to be said.

I vehemently agree with the whole rest of your post but I feel like judging someone by their fflogs is ignorant at best and disrespectful when that criticism isn't explicitly invited. I mean good for you, you're likely the better tank here, but at the same time with a comment like this I would be hesitant to want to party with you. You aren't running Savage with this guy.

Something has to be said for tact.

Again I very much agree with your overall message, I just don't feel okay with reducing someone to their fflogs.

If I missed where the quoted person brought up logs or something I apologize.

[Avatre]

but I feel like judging someone by their fflogs is ignorant at best and disrespectful when that criticism isn't explicitly invited.

I will 100% agree with you on that. I've looked at my FFlogs, and there is barely anything(granted, I don't do savage raids where most parsing does happen) for any of the trials/raids that I do run.

Who's to say that what's on FFlogs is the most current stuff? Or that people only uploaded ones where they themselves looked godly compared to others who may have had something distracting them?

I agree it can be a useful tool, but using it as indisputable proof that someone isn't that great of a player is back asswards.

[KaldeaSahaline]

I vehemently agree with the whole rest of your post but I feel like judging someone by their fflogs is ignorant at best and disrespectful when that criticism isn't explicitly invited. I mean good for you, you're likely the better tank here, but at the same time with a comment like this I would be hesitant to want to party with you. You aren't running Savage with this guy.

Something has to be said for tact.

Again I very much agree with your overall message, I just don't feel okay with reducing someone to their fflogs.

If I missed where the quoted person brought up logs or something I apologize.

I didn't reduce him to his logs. I looked at them, analyzed them, and coupled with his post; I was able to reach a conclusion. Logs do not lie. They give all the context one needs if one bothers to look.

Was my conclusion wrong? He gave bad information, and I gave context as to why his information was not worthwhile.

Who's to say that what's on FFlogs is the most current stuff? Or that people only uploaded ones where they themselves looked godly compared to others who may have had something distracting them?

The log is to say because it flat out tells you it is current. You would have known this if you had ever used it.

Logs don't make excuses. Players do. You would also know that logs main splash shows your historical best, so unless you're constantly "distracted" it will always show your best.

I agree it can be a useful tool, but using it as indisputable proof that someone isn't that great of a player is back asswards.

How is it ass backwards? What about my conclusion was wrong? What about his log today is incorrect so we can contact the site to fix it?

[Lewtskie]

As the tank it's kind of my job to take the reigns on their experience wouldn't you say?

Disagreed, and I really don't care this assumption. Being a Tank does not make you the defacto leader. You control the flow just as much as everyone else, and the one with the greater experience should, in any situation, be the one holding the reigns.

I appreciate you sharing that experience. I do however completely disagree that you didn't learn a thing. You very clearly learned how to mass pull. You learned what kind of gear wasn't as suitable for it. You learned that your FC mates aren't the best analysts.

Most importantly though, hopefully you learned that YOU have room to improve your tanking because I can say with 100% confidence you didn't do the best you could do either. Maybe you stacked cooldowns too much. Maybe you didn't stagger them properly. Maybe you weren't DPSing down the targets doing the most damage, etc.

Everything you just listed is rather superfluous. Yes, you can say I learned more than a handful of things that day, good and bad. But I suppose it's a matter of the value of what was learned. If anything, I learned not to trust those people as much, yay. And "learning to mass pull" is a technicality, as you learn that when you learn to pull from the first time. You're merely applying your knowledge and tools expansively.

And a game like this is not a chaotic force full of unknowns. You learn the mechanics, apply them, and in the end code and numbers dictate the outcome. I used my cooldowns as necessary, the time it took for me to drop was significant in that no amount of DPS available at the time would have resulted in a better outcome. I understand you didn't know that context, so that's fine. In the end it came down to numbers, and the difference meant failure was the only outcome.

You let fear shape you Break those chains and be the best you can be. Bring as many people along for the ride as you can and you might be surprised at just how many are glad to be a part of it.

It was through that fear that I learned to play other jobs. I wanted to keep playing the game but avoid tanks so I learned a few DPS and even attempted healers. Fear can be just as much a constructive force as any other. If anything worthwhile I learned, it's that. But I will never want anyone to be beholden to my situation; because while I came out in the end questionably better, though it took time, others may not. There's no telling how people will function and react as such and so I will never willingly put them there.

[Kazgrel]

In nearly 3 years of play, I’ve never seen someone booted from a hunt party due to their dps. Only time that happens is if someone goes afk and we have people trying to get into the group who are actively hunting.

[MoroMurasaki]

I didn't reduce him to his logs. I looked at them, analyzed them, and coupled with his post; I was able to reach a conclusion. Logs do not lie. They give all the context one needs if one bothers to look.

We have no way to know if your conclusion is correct because we haven't played with him. We dont know his group. We don't (and can't possibly) have the full context of any log on there.


Honestly despite all my posts in supoort of tanks being expected to stance dance and my frankly prolific rants about healer DPS I would rather have nice people who play suboptimally in my group than a tank with great DPS who is so full of themself they think they can accurately compare their performance to someone else's without ever olaying together.

Fflogs is great. ACT is great. I argue in favor of these things regularly and am just as regularly called a psycho elitist for sharing my views. You seem to be the kind of person those contrarians are attempting to paint me as, someone who puts so much stock in those numbers that nothing else matters.

The idea that you think you can dismiss someone (who I happen to also disagree with) on the basis of their fflogs page is asinine and just plain rude.

[Xerek]

Well, this was unexpected. Earlier in the thread there was discussion that FFLogs could be misused to shame and harrass someone. Now, KaldeaSahaline has done just that. Without provication, she brought up Anguel's O1S log in what was a blatently obvious attempt to shame. Seems to have worked, since Anguel hasn't posted since. Let's look at Kaldea's reasoning...

"Anguel has poor numbers on an O1S log, as such they are in no position to argue about what makes a tank good, and what they say should be disregarded outright."

Do I have it? Alright. This is, of course, utterly false. Don't believe me? Let me substitute...see if this sounds right to you.

"I can't really throw a football well. My throw speed and accuracy percentage pale to that of an NFL quarterback. Therefore I am in no position to argue what makes a good quarterback and any opinion I try to make on the matter should be outright discarded as a result."

Hmm...wait, that doesn't sound right, does it? Let's try this, then...

"I have trouble with faking expressions, and when I try and fool someone it's a dead giveaway. My ability to convince someone I'm not who I really am pales to that of an actor. Therefore, I am in no position to argue what makes a good actor, and any opinion I express in that regard should be discarded outright, based on my shortcomings."

...no, that sounds silly too. When in a debate, you attack the point, not the person. The only time the person is attacked is if the attacker is being petty, or finds the point to hard to attack. Honestly, bringing up their log to shame them was uncalled for and as I pointed out above, outright erroneous. And I'm happy to see you catching well-deserved flak over it, even from people that otherwise supported you. In using FFLogs to shame him, you have single-handedly embodied all the concerns raised about FFLogs earlier in this thread.

[HoodRat]

bad examples are bad

Try this: "I'm a significantly worse quarterback than those in the NFL, so my opinions on how to be a good quarterback are much less valuable than their opinions."

When in a debate, you attack the point, not the person.

The irony is not lost on me.