Built-in Parsers

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This is news to me, honestly. Last time I did anything rotation-wise on the PvE side of the house was early Heavensward, and to my knowledge that was merely noting that the old 1-2-1-3-2-3 I figured out on my own (and without a parser! Le gasp!) As for the top 20, I honestly don't know them. I don't even really care. Why? Because I don't care how well they do. I care how well I do. I care that I know the fight and can perform at my best more than anyone else.

Sounds self-justifying? Maybe, but really, if I had the time to mind someone else's performance, I have the time to refine mine. And I do that. A lot. It's practically a daily ritual now. Don't get me wrong, I've been parsed before. I recently even asked a static member to parse me, and the only thing I took from that was my numbers, with what I was doing at the time were good. Top 20? Ha, probably never. Low enough to drag my team down? Not at all. Will I let that number take a hit to ensure a mechanic isn't failed or we don't end up in a worse situation in an instance? Without a second thought.

This is the finger-waving part where someone can say, "see? You wouldn't have had to have him parse you if you could do it yourself!" And you're right. But that was more of a moment of self-dobut at the height of all the "MCH is weak/lolMCH/No MCH, no SMN" crap at that time. Raise your hand if you've never had your confidence shaken ever. That said, turns out I was doing just fine, as he confirmed. Oh dear, however did I manage to do it right before that fateful parse? It's not like I practiced and figured things out or talked to other MCHs that I know and trust. Nah, that's not it. . .

All sarcasm aside, I'll level with you: it IS because of people with parsers that solid information is available (otherwise it's all feelycraft), and I'm quite grateful for it. But having never waited for others to tell me how to do it and instead just trying things out and learning by pushing myself, then making any necessary adjustments once that information is available, that is why I feel no disadvantage. And that's why I say anyone can do it, PC or console, parser or not.

[DeaconMoore]

Ever heard about diversion? Ever heard about aggro reset skills? Elusive jump? Lets say i did that 2 times in a fight without you noticing, Would you still think you were ahead of me?

Yeah, you wasted time using them and may be tanking the floor after those jumps for a bit

But yes, the threat bars are a crappy sub for actual data.

[Sigiria]

snip

I think he came onto you from what I pointed. According to all the data accumulated on MCH players parses you're perfoming on average at 19% of your job max damage potential.
I agree prioritizing the mechanics over your dps is the safest way to ensure your victory in a fight, and if your whole team can rack up the dps to clear the encouter who cares about the numbers. But since the topic is having a notion of how much damage you do, if you thought you were performing well in that area you were mistaken.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

As much as I appreciate the lengthy reply I feel like you aren't understanding what the word disadvantage means.

Before anyone gets mad at me for being rude and insulting someone's intelligence I swear that is not the perspective I'm approaching this from. I only say this because I've seen several other people present you with perfectly reasonable posts about how, essentially, disadvantage is inherently present with less information available. You have stuck to your word choice. I don't know if it's stubbornness (again, not being mean, I am quite stubborn myself) or feeling backed into a corner or sometging else entirely but you seem like an intelligent, reasonable person and it frustrates me that you won't just acknowledge the fallacy here.

I agree there have been posts in this thread that have painted the disadvantage PS4 players face by being unable to parse as greater than it is. I agree it is quite possible to do really well without a parser if you spend a lot of time and effort honing your rotation. I even agree that you are undoubtably outperforming many MCH's who run parsers due to the time and effort you've sunk into the class. I have no way to know for sure, I won't be pulling fflogs.

What I can't agree with is the notion that a player with the same general skill and dedication could not do what you do considerably faster with a parser and, eventually, surpass you in effectiveness when it comes to high-end gameplay.

You are disadvantaged. You can choose not to see it if it makes you more comfortable but it is an objective fact. Best thing you can do now is try to even the playing field by letting us all have access to the same data.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I'm not against a parsing option for console players. I've openly noted that. And I fully understand that a parser can allow someone to perhaps learn what I learned and maybe faster or with less difficulty. I encourage this, believe it or not.

I think the big difference here is what we see as a disadvantage. If it were just impossible to reach a level of skill without a parser that a player with one had, that would indisputably be a disadvantage. While I may be proud that I can do what I can do without one, I'm not so stubborn as to outright refuse to use one or refuse others.

I think he came onto you from what I pointed. According to all the data accumulated on MCH players parses you're perfoming on average at 19% of your job max damage potential.

Only 19?

Oh.

That's my grand reaction to that. Sure I could nitpick and point out circumstances or things I know behind the numbers that others don't, but given that my team and I cleared what was uploaded and I neither dragged them down nor wiped them (I did once recently. I was tired. It wasn't uploaded), I can sleep well at night besides.

Let's also not be coy about hidden logs, or the ones that don't get uploaded because they're bad or don't paint the picture we want others to see. Hell, I joked about it in one of my last videos because I'm hardly bothered by it, and because I'm not even the one uploading them (I mean if I were, I'd do like everyone else and only put up the good ones).

That said, since were throwing people's numbers out there (you know, one of those things that thing SE remains gunshy on adding parsers because of) do tell me you brought enough for the rest of the class?

[HyoMinPark]

all mistakes are recoverable, no game content has a no win scenario. so yes everyone needs to own up.

This is absolutely false. You’ve clearly never done something like, for example, V4S, where Exdeath’s Thunder III tankbuster kills a tank when they fail to properly mitigate, and then the second hit turns around and hits the party member with the second highest aggro (usually a melee). And that tankbuster is an AOE, so say goodbye to the MT, the unfortunate melee, and anyone else standing near them. So, assuming that the OT, and another melee were there, that’s half the party gone. How is that recoverable? By the way, LB3 is a rarity in V4S unless there are too many deaths, and at that point, you aren’t going to meet enrage, so the healer LB3 would be a complete waste.

Don’t make blanket statements when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. Not all mistakes are recoverable; there are plenty that result in a wipe because one individual screwed up.

like I stated JP players don;t kick 1 person after 3 wipes they vote abandon if no amount of discussion improves a run. no hate, no rude words. they don't sigle out 1 player, they ask what the group did wrong, and how the group can improve.

Still on about the JP community? You seem to have either forgot, or you don’t know, that a JP static were the ones who harassed a FFXIV official on Nico Nico via parser, and one of the reasons Yoshi-P and the developers are so against condoning parsing in the first place. JP players are not the saints you make them out to be, so please stop romanticizing them.

if 1 person was really sat fault, then the other 7 can do fine w/o them and clear the run after they died. but that is not the case. Each person makes a mistake, or delibralty does something to everyone else.

Wrong again. While there are situations where 7 other highly skilled players can carry the deadweight of an 8th, those are few and far between. And nobody should have to carry a person who doesn’t want to fulfill their role in the group anyways. Even if the rest of the party can brute force their way through the duty.

There are some duties where you cannot just use brute force. I would love to see 7 people carry an 8th person through Ultimate, especially considering it still hasn’t been cleared yet.

like a healer getting upset a person stood in an aoe dying.

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here, but a healer does have every right to get mad at a person who dies because they can’t be bothered to move out of the AOEs.

no win scenario is when if you don't do something you can't progress. 1 mistake from 1 person doesn't cause a wipe. the whole group needs to make mistakes to cause a wipe.

did you not read the whole post? just asking because you pulled 1 line and using it to insult me rather looking at the post as a whole. This is the type of stuff I'm talking about the petty behavior over a difference in opinion.

One person can very easily cause a wipe in some content, and that would not be the fault of the party. Tank doesn’t mitigate for a tankbuster like Exdeath’s Thunder III, or Alexander Prime’s Punishing Heat and it takes out half the party as a result? How is it the fault of the party for the tank failing to mitigate? An OT doesn’t grab adds in certain fights, and they run off and pummel a healer to death. How is that the entire party’s fault? DPS die due to not being topped off during raidwide damage such as Halicarnassus’ Dimensional Wave. How is that the fault of the DPS? Or the tanks even?

You talked about snowball effects—but the truth is, the snowball has to start somewhere, and it usually starts with a single person. Again, refer back to my examples I have given you, where the wipe was caused by a single person failing to perform their job: tank failing to tank/mitigate busters, healers failing to heal before massive AOE damage, etc.. Those wipes start with a single person making a single, careless mistake. If you want a DPS-at-fault scenario, take Sephirot Ex: how fun do you think it is for a melee to not move off to the side when they have an Earthshaker marker, and take out half of the party with them? Not very fun. How fun is it to have the DPS marked for Mad Hops stack with the OT/healers also marked for their own Mad Hops and take them out? Not very fun.

You aren’t expressing your posts as opinions, but rather stating them as if they are facts. Anyone who disagrees with you is met with “JP community is better!” and condescending remarks accusing them of “attacking you” and being the “toxic elitists” that are what’s “wrong” with the NA/EU community.


I’m still waiting for an answer to my previous question: do you do Savage content? Have you done any of Omega Savage? Have you cleared V3S? What about V4S? Did you do any of Alexander Savage when it was relevant? If not, then why are you talking about things you don’t understand, and making generalizations and trying to pass them off as “facts”? If you haven’t done Savage, then you haven’t done the type of content where one mistake from one person can very easily lead to a wipe.

And this isn’t coming from some “elitist” pedistal. This discussion was originally about implementing parsers in content where they matter, and if you don’t do said content (Ultimate, Savage, Ex primals), then why do you care? And why are you trying to pass your opinions off as facts when you haven’t even done the content in this game where a parser actually matters?



To address the continued proposal that publicly condoned parsers would lead to more widespread harassment: where is the evidence suggesting this? Where is the evidence supporting this? As far as I’m aware, no one can see into the future, so no one can say that harassment via parser is going to increase if they were to be publicly condoned, or if one was to be built into the game; or that it would not be properly dealt with if reported.

[MoroMurasaki]

I'm not against a parsing option for console players. I've openly noted that. And I fully understand that a parser can allow someone to perhaps learn what I learned and maybe faster or with less difficulty. I encourage this, believe it or not.

I think the big difference here is what we see as a disadvantage. If it were just impossible to reach a level of skill without a parser that a player with one had, that would indisputably be a disadvantage. While I may be proud that I can do what I can do without one, I'm not so stubborn as to outright refuse to use one or refuse others.

But definitions aren't subject to feelings or "how we see" things. The dictionary defines disadvantage as the "absence or deprivation of advantage or equality" which is literally exactly what is being discussed here. PS4 players do not have access to a parser. A parser helps you do things better faster which is undoubtably advantageous. It is the absence of that advantage or equality (with PC players) and therefor by definition disadvantageous.

I wouldn't care about your poor word choice if it wasn't helping trolls argue against what I feel would be the largest positive change to happen in this game since I started playing it. You're providing them with a token console player who says "nah, its cool, everything is fine on console" when that is objecrively untrue.

[akaneakki]

I?

Out of topic, I've seen some of your videos and they can be funny

[HyoMinPark]

No, of course one thing such as an in-game parser is not enough on its own, even as it gives elitists a means to say "This is in the game now, so you better learn to use it!" Can you say in utmost honesty that no such thing will happen? Some folks already try to lord it over other people, which is presently against the game's Terms of Service, and for good reason. Then there is the all likelihood that the one thing--the in-game parser--is part of a slippery slope that I'm sure other more experienced MMO players can tell you about.

Don’t use slippery slope arguments in your argument.

And pro-parser people try to “lord it over” people who don’t parse? Like, what? I’ve never seen any incident of a person demanding a player start parsing, or start using a parse. While that’s anecdotal, so is your experience, which it seems like that’s what you’re speaking on behalf of.

Things that elite players and wannabe elitists alike both want added or taken away.

Less time and resources given to non-raid content, save for generic collectibles, fetch quests, et cetera, because the already limited size of Team Yoshi is too focused on providing for the one type of player as opposed to the millions of players who enjoyed the game until that point.

This “argument” again? Are you trying to say that Ultimate took away content from 4.1, because it’s already been stated time and time again by people here AND by the development team that Ultimate did not take anything away from the content of 4.1. And, really? Are you really trying to argue that the developers cater to the raiders, because it is the exact opposite. They cater to the “other majority”—the side of the playerbase that prefer “non-Savage” content.

The expansions and patches in the game release piece of content after piece of content for the sides of the community that aren’t Savage raiders: dungeons, 24-mans, casual 8-mans, quests, sidequests, crafting and gathering for those that prefer DoH/DoL, beast tribes, etc., etc.. Every other patch releases a Savage 8-man raid, each one getting progressively easier since Gordias. The developers finally decide to give something to the “1%” of “hardcore” players that asked repeatedly for more, and people start crying about how...what? They didn’t get something, too? I don’t understand this argument at all. This was literally the first time the developers ever gave something to that “1%”, and apparently it was so incredibly offensive to the other “99%” because...what? Eureka didn’t come out? They already said that Eureka being delayed was not due to Ultimate, which, aside from very few things, is mostly reused assets from previously existing fights.

I’m sorry if this wasn’t what you were saying, but I have gotten really tired of hearing people cry over Ultimate when it didn’t affect 4.1 content in any way.

Again, a parse is fine as a tool for self-improvement, but there are people who can and will abuse the parser to the nth degree should we have an in-game parser. There are people already who try with fflogs. Not one person, but several people. Give them an inch/ilm, and they'll take more than a yard/yalm. Once they do, then things will become progressively worse for everyone else.

That's all the more I'm going to say on that.

Just like people abuse the vote kick system. Or the reporting harassment system. Or spam the vote abandon after one wipe to a boss in a 24-man. A jerk is going to be a jerk; parser or no parser. But to insinuate that a parser is the cause for jerk-ish behavior is completely misinformed. Don’t blame the tool just because some dude you will probably never encounter again decided to be a jerk, and used a parser to do it.

I repeat what I asked in another post: where is your evidence (non-anecdotal and non-slippery slope, please) to support your argument? Because, unless you can see into the future, you cannot rightly say “If a parser is built into this game, harassment is going to increase, and people are going to start expecting everyone to parse in every duty”.

As to whether or not I'm performing well, on Bard rotation at this point for example, it comes down to my gear, whether or not the enemy I'm fighting lasts long enough for a rotation--because it can be annoying if I'm about to Barrage + Refulgent Arrow something and it jumps into the air, unable to be targeted until Barrage and Straighter Shot both wear off--and whether or not Straighter Shot even procs because that Refulgent Arrow is a beautiful thing when we can actually use it. I can see the difference, generally, in the health bars of bosses when Refulgent Arrow can or cannot be used, when Pitch Perfect hits the third note often enough, and so on. It is a rather proc-based job, in addition to the resources we provide, but when it works, it devastates and makes quite the difference per phase. No, I don't need the damage meter; that is not a feeling but a fact.

There is so much more to a Bard’s rotation that just Barrage+Refulgent Arrow. Proc-based or not, are you using your songs in the right order (Minuet > Mage’s > Army’s clipped at 10 seconds left to repeat, for single target; Mage’s > Army’s > Minuet clipped at 10 seconds left to repeat, for AOE)? Lining up Raging Strikes with Minuet, and using Barrage only in Raging (because it a loss to use it outside of Raging)? Are you Barraging Empyreal Arrow if RA doesn’t proc during Raging? Are you keeping your DoTs up, and refreshing them every 30 seconds with Iron Jaws? What about your Straight Shot buff? Is it up 100% of the time? Whether or not you were just trying to break down a bard’s rotation to the most simplistic of ways, what you stated still isn’t an accurate representation of the job’s rotation.

As for “telling the difference in the HP bars”, you aren’t taking into consideration the damage of the other players in your party. Without a parser, you won’t know if you’re putting out sufficient damage or not, unless you calculate by hand via the Battle Logs. You can’t go off of a “feeling” or a “difference in the depletion of a mob’s HP”. There’s too much room for error and influence in the latter. I’m sorry, but I don’t find this argument you’ve presented to be decent enough to be used against implementing built-in parsers in content where they matter (Ultimate, Savage, and Ex trials).

Amusing how you say this without evidence or further elaboration. The way you are currently making it sound, a parse simply tells you how to play this game, rather than you figuring it out for yourself. Would you care to build upon this, leaving nothing unclear and without debate as to how it works? Furthermore, would you like to state why it is, exactly, that everyone I've met who uses a parse only seems to do so for the damage meter?

I’m sure you’re probably aware of all the theorycrafters out there (for example, Dervy). Do you know how they come up with their data? Parsers and hours upon hours of Striking Dummy tests. Parsers tell you so much more than just how much damage-per-second you’re putting out. You say you main Bard, then I’m sure you’re aware of some of the top bard players out there (for example, Miyuri). How do you think they perfect their rotations, figure their openers, etc.? Parsers and hours upon hours of Striking Dummy tests. They don’t do it based off of “feelings” or watching the HP of a dummy deplete.

Don’t look at parsers in such a black-and-white point of view. Used correctly, they are an immensely useful tool that can tell you far more than just “Oh, well I did 4506.08 DPS that run; that’s 95th percentile. Sweet!” Couple it with FFlogs and FFlogs’ Replay function, you have an amazing tool for analyzing a wipe to pinpoint where the exact issue is, and work on rectifying it. I did that many times with my old static to try and see what caused us to die on V2S and V3S, and we did our best to learn from it.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

But definitions aren't subject to feelings or "how we see" things. The dictionary defines disadvantage as the "absence or deprivation of advantage or equality" which is literally exactly what is being discussed here. PS4 players do not have access to a parser. A parser helps you do things better faster which is undoubtably advantageous. It is the absence of that advantage or equality (with PC players) and therefor by definition disadvantageous.

I wouldn't care about your poor word choice if it wasn't helping trolls argue against what I feel would be the largest positive change to happen in this game since I started playing it. You're providing them with a token console player who says "nah, its cool, everything is fine on console" when that is objecrively untrue.

Let's break it down to a simple problem solving formula. Ask yourself this:

Can you do it?
Can you do it whether on PC or console?
Can you do it on either whether you have a parser or not?

We're not talking about "can you do it better or faster?", we've covered that. I mean, until doing it better or faster bears some kind of notable merit or reward, it's entirely secondary to those main points. If the answer to those questions, all three, is yes, then I ask where your disadvantage is? Not the definition, not secondary factors, just that baseline right there. If any one of those is a no, then wherein lies the disadvantage that prevents you from doing it? I can say that if any one of those were a no for me, or for console players universally, I'd likely be the loudest complaint.

Out of topic, I've seen some of your videos and they can be funny

Thank you. That truly means a lot to hear.