Tank Stances, Traited

[shao32]

snip

tank stances are a huge problems bcs are a outdated desing, any good tank tank without tank stance 99% of the time thats a fact, stance dancing is a falacy and when you face fights where you have to get in to tank stance for any reason DRK/PLD suffer much more that WAR bcs they loose not only a ogcd but resources too.

tank stances need a rework to work and have better sinergy with our other skills, in other words encourage real stance dancing more, if the penalty still stay then tank stances need to be reworked to make the pay off fair and avoid any type of desing that make it useless when you get more ilvl.

[Reynhart]

When I was first doing O1s and O2s and I didn't know the mechanics well I used tank stance a lot as a crutch (maybe I'm a bad player idk). Now that I know the timing of everything well and my higher gear level reduces damage I take anyways I can time cool downs to deal with the twin bolts, evil spheres, tail swipes, etc and maximize my DPS to reduce the time it takes to clear these easier fights.

Yesterday was my first O2S win, so I definitely need more runs to really master it, and my gear ilvl is only barely above i320 since I'm boycotting tome gear, yet I managed to drop my tank stance throughout the whole fight after the initial Power Slash combo. I don't know, maybe my healers are really awesome
But, in my perspective of a tank, it fel really weird.

Right now with all the damage mitigation tools and the timing of the incoming damage the game lets you be both aggressive and turtle at the right times. I prefer this play style. It's no fun hitting the same three buttons over and over.

It's great that you love that playstyle, but some of us don't really. The beauty of having multiple jobs for one role should be to have a job for each separate playstyle, don't you think ?

[mrt617]

Is there a reason you are boycotting Tome gear?

Speaking of you O2s clear it sounds like you are better than me. It took me a couple of clears to get comfortable staying in sword stance the whole time. Basically it sounds like you want the content to reward you for mitigating damage and to put less load on tanks for dpsing? Or is it to just make it more rewarding to be in tank stance maybe by giving healers more chance to dps. I guess healer DPS could just be moved up to where it is higher than tanks output there by making it more important for them to dps. Of course that will make a lot of healers who don't like to dps upset.

[Azerhan]

Beside of that, there is some job that are boring in Tank stance. DRK for exemple.

[Reynhart]

Is there a reason you are boycotting Tome gear?

I'm bored by the over reliance on tome farming that basically make all dungeon rewards irrelevant. And also the fact that tome gear was mandatory in HW. That's one thing where SB is much better, since Expert Dungeon loot is enough to enter Omega.

Speaking of you O2s clear it sounds like you are better than me. It took me a couple of clears to get comfortable staying in sword stance the whole time.

It didn't really change my CD rotation to remove Grit, especially with the tank swaps. So, I'd say all the burden was put on the healers and not really me.

Basically it sounds like you want the content to reward you for mitigating damage and to put less load on tanks for dpsing?

Not only mitigating damage but also generating high enmity (I have a suggestion to reward this). For the DPS load, my view is that what matters is not really personal DPS, but raid DPS. And raid DPS can be increased several ways. The easiest is higher personal, but you could also put damage buff, vulnerability debuffs, and reduce the need for healing.

I guess healer DPS could just be moved up to where it is higher than tanks output there by making it more important for them to dps.

For that, I liked the old Cleric Stance, that drastically increased your "usual" DPS. But if you can save a whole bunch of GCD by being sturdy, healer's DPS should noticeably increase.

Of course that will make a lot of healers who don't like to dps upset.

Not really. You just have to find complementary players. Agressive tanks with healers who focus on healing and Turtle tanks with healers who want to DPS. Or just make concesions with your beloved healer so that you take turns doing what you like less.

Besides, the debate "tank stance vs DPS stance" is not really the same as "only healing vs healing+DPSing"

[Sacred_Nym]

I feel that the damage penalty is necessary. In DPS stance, I think tanks do too much damage when compared to full DPS, so the penatly is here to balance things, while still giving tank enough native DPS so that solo content wouldn't be a pain to clear.

Maybe, but the fact is that first of all, that damage penalty is why Tank stance is avoided as it is. The fact is that ultimately it doesn't offer anything that's worth the damage penalty. And it never will because a damage penalty as big as even Shield Oath's let alone Defiance or Grit couldn't be compensated for by anything short of near invincibility. And I don't think that's the fault of the game's design at all, that's just the value outgoing damage has as a rule of all games that include combat. Secondly, a lot of players that currently play tanks in FF14 do so at least in part because of the damage output. Therefore anything that can be perceived as a significant nerf to their damage output will just lead to them dropping tanking and switching to DPS, and we don't need that at any level of play. DPS queues are bad enough as it is.

Personally, I'd simply remove the enmity bonuses from skills so that all enmity boost would be on the stance. But it would require tank stances to be gained at a much lower level. It would also help level 50- tanks that either don't have their DPS stance (WAR) or only have their enmity combo (PLD).

First of all if we do that then what's the point of the enmity combo?
Second of all, it does nothing to address the fact that currently in the game, outside of the moment of the pull, enmity is the job of everyone in the raid except the main tank. The reason being that everyone except who is actually tanking has buttons they can press to reduce their enmity or even give it to the main tank without reducing their own DPS... except the main tank. Diversion, Lucid, Tactician, Refresh, Smokescreen, Shadewalker, Shirk. None of these have a negative impact of DPS, but the only thing the main tank can do to boost their own enmity is enmity combo, tank stance, or both. All of them are huge DPS losses.

[Reynhart]

Maybe, but the fact is that first of all, that damage penalty is why Tank stance is avoided as it is. The fact is that ultimately it doesn't offer anything that's worth the damage penalty. And it never will because a damage penalty as big as even Shield Oath's let alone Defiance or Grit couldn't be compensated for by anything short of near invincibility.

For me a stance less tank should be twice as hard to heal. So ShO and Grit should give 50% damage reduced and Defiance should give +100% HP/Healing received.
Of course, boss damage could be increased a bit to keep things challenging. If a healer could spend around half the GCD healing the tank, I'm pretty sure it could do enough DPS to compensate the damage penalty.
Besides, it would be a playstyle. Technically, no player should be forced to play as a turtle. And even if, if would only redistributed the tank playerbase between the three jobs.

First of all if we do that then what's the point of the enmity combo?

To be fair, even now, there's not really a point to the enmity combo. People tend to avoid it as much as possible.

Second of all, it does nothing to address the fact that currently in the game, outside of the moment of the pull, enmity is the job of everyone in the raid except the main tank.

To keep enmity a concern for everyone, I'd do something else, which is increase the damage of the DPS and thus, their enmity, to the point where they really have to pay attention and hold back if their tank has trouble building it. But when they're paired with a good tank, they will be able to unleash their full power without fear.

[frostmagemari]

Tank stance doesn't need to be traited, but it does need to change.

The individuals who say that there is no true benefit to tank stance are correct, especially when it appears that the non-stanced tanks can weather the damage that comes their way through cooldown usage; Most using the damage reduction gained via tank stance as a singular cooldown for an attack.

The issue that most have with tank stance is the damage penalty, believing that the small percentage of damage that tank stances prevent is not worth the percentage loss in dps.

I do not believe the dps loss should be removed from tank stance, but rather that a non-stanced tank should be more vulnerable. An easy way to do this would be to reduce the defense levels of tank armour.

Doing comparisons from the 310 to 340 ilvl tank armour (the items that have defense ratings), the maiming armour is approximately 70% of the fending armour.
If the defense on the fending armour is reduced to equal the maiming armour, and then the tank stance (instead of reducing incoming damage) increases the defense of the tank (a factor of 42.5% would increase the defense back up to current levels). In addition to a small passive enmity bonus, the +enmity bonuses abilities should only trigger if it is used within tank stance. Doing this would create a situation in the tank stance in which is needed; regardless of any percieved loss in dps.

Some tank abilities would need to be reworked around the naturally reduced armour; but in general, it would create a battle situation in which Tank stance is a necessity to the combat. This would also put slightly more emphsis on active healing from the healer as the tank would be slightly more vulnrable.

This of course isn't an indepth look into every change that would need to be made, but i believe something like this could start to balance the need to be an actual tank (and by slight extension have actual healers) instead of DPS with some off-role skills.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

To keep enmity a concern for everyone, I'd do something else, which is increase the damage of the DPS and thus, their enmity, to the point where they really have to pay attention and hold back if their tank has trouble building it. But when they're paired with a good tank, they will be able to unleash their full power without fear.

This is a horrible idea. Not only would it be a nightmare in pugs and DF, but it feels awful to essentially gimp your opening burst because the tank needs to build aggro. And what happens with ilvl differences? I already nearly rip off undergeared tanks whenever I run Samurai in Expert. They wouldn't have a chance with this kinda of a system.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

This is a horrible idea. Not only would it be a nightmare in pugs and DF, but it feels awful to essentially gimp your opening burst because the tank needs to build aggro. And what happens with ilvl differences? I already nearly rip off undergeared tanks whenever I run Samurai in Expert. They wouldn't have a chance with this kinda of a system.

This "system" is in World of warcraft. When your tank reach max level with a poor gear, you can't except he'll can take your maximum geared optimised as f*ck character in term of aggro. But we're in Ff14 and the tanking without tank stance isn't really normal. Elitist player could say : you don't need tank stance, more Dps is more mitigating cause the boss hit you less.

Where I say : good player is not determined by their DPS meter. Good player is some one who take every values in count when doing content, like the stuff of the tanks, the stuff of the heal, and even IN the fight, the reactivity.... Etc...

I'm a tank who stay ever in tank stance. And you know what? I don't give a single fuck to those Healer or Dps that try to make me learn how to do my job. DPSing is not my role, when I tag dungeons, it's wrote : TANK. But of course I'll drop the tank stance when it's not needed, like the 3 sword phase of Zenos.


As a proposal for the tank and Dps stance... I couldn't find the guys who say it but someone say this : Naoki Yoshida hasn't designed tank to be in Dps stance for unlimited time in fight.

So, I suggest this : reduce de the enmity generated in Dps stance by 40% (but the Dps stance of Drk don't affect grit's aggro if this one is activated along