Tank Stances, Traited

[TabrisOmbrelame]

i was thinking about a traited tank stance as well. but without the damage penalty since atm endgame is done mostly out of tank stance anyway.

Not a bad idea. I though of that too. So why not merge the effect of stance in just one so you don't have to change?

Just for exemple :

PLD stance make - 20% damage taken, Auto attack get buffed
DRK - 20% Damage taken, +20% damage done
War +25% hp, +20% heal, +5% damage

But when you think about it, it could be quit high in damage, so just reduce a little the damage output of tank to stay far behind Dps, but it'll be still a buff that can't make Dps outmatched. Something like 5% on tank stance (if merging isn't possible)

[Reynhart]

PLD stance make - 20% damage taken, Auto attack get buffed
DRK - 20% Damage taken, +20% damage done
War +25% hp, +20% heal, +5% damage

Right now, the damage penatly difference on the three tank stances is still part of the (imperfect) balance. Removing them could create a whole new mess

But when you think about it, it could be quit high in damage, so just reduce a little the damage output of tank to stay far behind Dps, but it'll be still a buff that can't make Dps outmatched. Something like 5% on tank stance (if merging isn't possible)

That would result in lower DPS when doing solo content or, worse, when you're not tanking, which happens quite a lot.

[Baci]

PLD stance make - 20% damage taken, Auto attack get buffed
DRK - 20% Damage taken, +20% damage done
War +25% hp, +20% heal, +5% damage

If you would want to change tank stances like that SE would need to fix healing abilities first so they actually get buffed by the +20% heal

[TabrisOmbrelame]

It was only an idea. Didn't say it's was a perfect one... Still we need to find a way that makes tank balanced. I will take WOW (not the actual one, the ancien extension Lich king) as a reference here.

If I remember correctly, Paladin on war craft 3.3.5, got something like - 9% damage taken , and +10-16% damage output (following the talent tree)

I know we can't compare something like this here, but the values of HP and Damage is pretty similar to that period.
But if I look FF log, Dps, for the highest they reach is around 5,5k~, tank got 3k~ so the damage dealt by Dps is only twice that of tank (I assume the 3k Dps is in Dps stance, not tank stance)

We could say that if we boost Dps for Drk (lowest tank in Dps) by 10% we can match Paladin on maximum Dps. We just need to find idea and Pray that SE look at that idea

[Tzain]

Not a bad idea. I though of that too. So why not merge the effect of stance in just one so you don't have to change?

Just for exemple :

PLD stance make - 20% damage taken, Auto attack get buffed
DRK - 20% Damage taken, +20% damage done
War +25% hp, +20% heal, +5% damage

But when you think about it, it could be quit high in damage, so just reduce a little the damage output of tank to stay far behind Dps, but it'll be still a buff that can't make Dps outmatched. Something like 5% on tank stance (if merging isn't possible)

While I'm all for merging PLD stances (or just getting rid of them, they're silly) I feel like Warrior is very much defined by them.
The problem is that 'stance shifting' isn't a core mechanic to the playstyle. So what if shifting from Defiance to Deliverance and back again allows you to keep the other stances buff for a short time. So a Warrior could build beast gauge while tanking, then deliverance shift, execute an enemy with a fell cleave or two, then shift back to their defiance stance before the buff ran out, thus giving themselves all the defiance buff + the deliverance buff for a short time as well.
The main advantage to the stance would be that they unlock/lock certain abilities. So Warrior stance cycling comes with an opportunity cost of active skills, leaving room for skillful play when managing the stance durations and the active abilities. (full disclosure, I dont play warrior, so I'm not sure how good this idea is. It just sort of popped in my head.)

[DkFusion]

The root problem is the same as it has always been with maybe the exception somewhat at ARR's inception.

Tanks at top tier should not being doing 70-80% of an actual dps's damage. If the average 75th percentile and higher for a dps is 5,000 to 6,000 dps, a tanks at perfect execution should be around 1,500 to 2,000. If the overwhelming majority want to keep stance dancing and what not for complexity sure whatever, but plain and simple the dps meta in this game trivializes encounters.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/a8yKx...pe=damage-done

Look at the staggering difference in tank/healer/dps damage ratios. It's retarded and unnecessary for complex raid gameplay.

[Azerhan]

tanks are simple just staing in dps stance all time so i dont see any diference.

on topic:

i dont understand why DRK have a 30% mitigation and PLD only a 10% both will have 20% and move forward, acual PLD is superior but thats nothing that some changes on DRK set cant solve.

and you changes for WAR dont make sense, idk if you know how WAR works but they are constantly spaming fell cleaves all the time so as you suggestion they will be hable to keep that 20% mitigation up almost every 10 seconds minimun, and is decimate no demolish, and you need to rework unleash too.

for PLD i dont see anything extreme but DRK? the blood weapon dont make sense, except i understand it wrong you want to double dark arts potency bonus at double the actual high cost with no MP regeneration? its pretty expensive for a small burst, its basicly put 2 dark arts in 1, if was with the same MP cost or just 1/2 increse ill buy it, but this nope.

Funny thing, even with the 30% mitigation with Grit, PLD stay better than the DRK in tanking.

I think the issue with stances it's the need of more stance dance. The War is near that, in Shinryu for exemple, I use Defiance + IB + a CD to survive to the TB. And then, I return to dps stance.
For the DRK it's too hard to do that, because Grit is in GCD and cost mp, and mp is use for almost generate enmity, dps and protect. PLD is quite different, you need less your mp, and you have very more mitigation tool.

[Ilan]

How about we take all skills outside of the aggro combo and the defensive cooldowns away from tanks? I mean they are not boring enough to play yet and they are still able to do solo stuff in a acceptable time.

[Saziel]

I would love for there to be a greater incentive somehow to make Shield Oath the most important thing for Paladins. I don't do raiding myself, but I hate the idea that a tank is now expected to do insane DPS. That's the antithesis of a tank. I play Paladin to be an insurmountable barrier between me and my party. I'll go play my Samurai or Dragoon if I want to be a damage dealer.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

I would love for there to be a greater incentive somehow to make Shield Oath the most important thing for Paladins. I don't do raiding myself, but I hate the idea that a tank is now expected to do insane DPS. That's the antithesis of a tank. I play Paladin to be an insurmountable barrier between me and my party. I'll go play my Samurai or Dragoon if I want to be a damage dealer.

Finaly ! Someone with a brain !

I can't disagree with Saziel, Tank are not supposed to do massive damage to an enemy, and when i saw all of this tank that go through massive pack of mobs without tank stance, i can't understand why they do this... They put their healer in an extremely Stressful state, and if the heal isn't good, they die, and they don't even learn from this. And after that you can see some of this tank raging, like it's the healer fault for not healing the tank correctly...