Tank Stances, Traited

[MauvaisOeil]

Finaly ! Someone with a brain !

I can't disagree with Saziel, Tank are not supposed to do massive damage to an enemy, and when i saw all of this tank that go through massive pack of mobs without tank stance, i can't understand why they do this... They put their healer in an extremely Stressful state, and if the heal isn't good, they die, and they don't even learn from this. And after that you can see some of this tank raging, like it's the healer fault for not healing the tank correctly...

Too few risks with too much reward. That's the point : If, a Tank looses less than he gains to turn out to a DPS machine, then the healer will also loose less than she should, and the overall damage is increased.

Risk vs reward is not ajusted when you loose 20% to gain 40%.

[mrt617]

I think tank game play for the most part is fine and a lot of fun. I like the way tank stance is set up now and I think it adds to the enjoyment of playing the classes (especially warrior). I enjoy trying to push my dps as high as I can get it during savage but at the same time hitting cool downs at the right time to mitigate incoming damage. If I screw up the timing of using a cool down I always have tank stance to fall back on. It seems to me if you remove tank stance you are just removing some of the intricacies of playing tank.

[RuneSevalle]

I think tank game play for the most part is fine and a lot of fun. I like the way tank stance is set up now and I think it adds to the enjoyment of playing the classes (especially warrior). I enjoy trying to push my dps as high as I can get it during savage but at the same time hitting cool downs at the right time to mitigate incoming damage. If I screw up the timing of using a cool down I always have tank stance to fall back on. It seems to me if you remove tank stance you are just removing some of the intricacies of playing tank.

I do enjoy the nuances of tank swapping on WAR, but I feel that's really the only tank that can pull off the stance dance effectively. Maybe WAR just needs to stay as the stance dancer, as both of its stances are very well defined. PLD and DRK, on the other hand, really wouldn't suffer much from some stance changes of some kind.

[mrt617]

Well with Paladin there is no stance dancing. Normally if you are MT it's start of in shield oath do an enmity combo or two (depending on ninja) switch to sword oath. Stay in sword oath unless you screw up, healer screws up, or struggling with aggro. I find it better to stay in sword oath normally because you get oath gauge much faster giving more sheltrons. PLD could have more stance dancing though if they took the stance change off global cooldown.

[Reynhart]

Too few risks with too much reward. That's the point : If, a Tank looses less than he gains to turn out to a DPS machine, then the healer will also loose less than she should, and the overall damage is increased.
Risk vs reward is not ajusted when you loose 20% to gain 40%.

That's why I think boss damage should be increasing and Tank stance buffed to 50% damage reduced (Or +100% HP, +100% healing received for WAR)

[Sacred_Nym]

My thoughts are that rather than trying to enforce tank stance by increasing damage output (let's face it, that would just get thrown on the healers most of the time anyway), we should look at the other major feature of tank stances to encourage them. Enmity.
As it stands, tanks just do one aggro combo in tank stance and they're set hate wise for the rest of the fight. As long as they are the main tank, hate is effectively not their job the way the game currently is.

My thought?

1. Remove the samage penalty from tank stance. This is simply an outdated concept at this point and is the main reason why tanks are effectively discouraged from tank stancing.
1a. Make Unchained buff Inner Beast/Steel Cyclone to Fell Cleave/Decimate Potencies. It'd still be a loss to use these over actual Fell Cleave/Decimate on account of not having Deliverance's damage bonus or Inner Release, but it not nearly as much of a loss as it currently is. Plus gotta do something with Unchained when it's current effect is made moot.

2. Give DPS stances a Diversion-like effect. This would make it so that Tanks, while actively tanking, can still switch and increase their DPS but in becomes less a natural state and more of a burst window. One that can be extended by other members of the raid properly managing their enmity.
In the case of DRK, a Diversion effect on Darkside would naturally be overwritten by Grit.


I think this would have the effect of making tanking more engaging at the top level play while also making it easier for new players to get into since sitting in Tank Stance wouldn't be nearly as cancerous feeling as it currently is. To me at least, it sounds like a win all around.

[Reynhart]

1. Remove the damage penalty from tank stance. This is simply an outdated concept at this point and is the main reason why tanks are effectively discouraged from tank stancing.

I feel that the damage penalty is necessary. In DPS stance, I think tanks do too much damage when compared to full DPS, so the penatly is here to balance things, while still giving tank enough native DPS so that solo content wouldn't be a pain to clear.

2. Give DPS stances a Diversion-like effect. This would make it so that Tanks, while actively tanking, can still switch and increase their DPS but in becomes less a natural state and more of a burst window. One that can be extended by other members of the raid properly managing their enmity.

Personally, I'd simply remove the enmity bonuses from skills so that all enmity boost would be on the stance. But it would require tank stances to be gained at a much lower level. It would also help level 50- tanks that either don't have their DPS stance (WAR) or only have their enmity combo (PLD).

The thing is that, in the end, you can't just enforce the stance without offering something that people would actually want. So, if you want people to focus on enmity, high enmity generation should be rewarded. For example, tank stances could have a "Blindside" effect, so that every party member that has less enmity than you would gain a damage/crit/direct hit (pick one or two) buff on your target(s) (Lorewise, the target is so focused on you that it's more likely to take critical or direct hits by others), and this buff would increase in potency the wider the enmity gap is.

[mrt617]

I still don't understand the desire for tanks to be forced into using tank stance more. Tanking is a lot of fun now at the top level. Neo Exdeath is a lot of fun with managing cool downs for tank busters and aggro since it resets constantly. It's almost impossible to establish aggro without tank stance unless you have a ninja in the group during the almagest to aero2 to earth shakers combo especially with a whm going ham with cure 3s. Also tank stance is great for O3s during tethers/mindjack/place dark token phase because you keep getting autoattacked but the healers are too focused on their positioning to heal you. Also for the library phase book drop/spell blade holy attack it is good for some cushioning because there is an autoattack right after that mechanic. Sorry for the rambling, but in my opinion and in my experience tank stance is fine the way it is and I see no need to be forced into using it more.

[Reynhart]

Rant about tank stance usage

I'm confused. You ask why some people want tank stance to receive more emphasis yet you give several examples where the content actually enforces using it, be it for mitigation or enmity generation, and testify that this content is still fun to do.

I haven't tried O4S yet, but for me, it feels unnatural to spend most of O1S or O2S without Grit. But, more than that, I think it would be nice to have both options, each with its own pros and cons.

For aggressive tanks, they'll play a bigger part on the raid DPS while healers will probably do less with a tighter healing check, and for turtle tanks, they will give more room for healers to DPS or, at the extreme, allow solo-heal setup with the proper coordination.

And I think it would fit right at hom with the split in the healer's community, with those who like to DPS a lot and those who prefer focusing on healing.

To sum up, I'd like to have one of the tanks to be more efficient for the raid by being a turtle instead of dropping its tank stance.

[mrt617]

My whole point was that tank stance is useful and doesn't need to be changed. Not needing tank stance for easy fights (o1s and o2s) is understandable especially with higher gear levels now. When I was first doing O1s and O2s and I didn't know the mechanics well I used tank stance a lot as a crutch (maybe I'm a bad player idk). Now that I know the timing of everything well and my higher gear level reduces damage I take anyways I can time cool downs to deal with the twin bolts, evil spheres, tail swipes, etc and maximize my DPS to reduce the time it takes to clear these easier fights.

Right now with all the damage mitigation tools and the timing of the incoming damage the game lets you be both aggressive and turtle at the right times. I prefer this play style. It's no fun hitting the same three buttons over and over.