Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[Miste]

snip

Ah, so you can't answer my question on what AST and SCH has to compare GCD + GCD with Cure III + Cure III. That's unfortunate.

I see...so should I complain that AST and SCH are too weak compared to WHM now? Because they lack Cure III and have no GCD heal that can match its power?

Also just because you keep flip flopping between Diurnal and Nocturnal to try to claim I am ignoring your points doesn't make you somehow correct. You are just forcing me into being incorrect by changing the topic back and forth from Diurnal to Nocturnal. You've done this twice now. You mention Diurnal and I reply to it then you are like "lol no, Nocturnal".

Every time you mention Diurnal and then I make comments on it you then you flip flop over to Nocturnal and say "lol no you're wrong cause Nocturnal", even when I wasn't even talking about Nocturnal. My last post I replied to you with I was replying to your Diurnal numbers.

Are you even paying attention at this point? Because I know your in-game tests are comparing WHM Cure II with Nocturnal Benefic II in order to try to flip flop to try to claim I am wrong. The difference between Diurnal Benefic II and Cure II is not 800-1400 HP because it is only a 15 potency difference. 15 potency is not 800-1400 HP.

So you are just taking my post about Diurnal where I claim Diurnal potency difference is negligible and bringing in Nocturnal numbers to artificially twist this in your favour to claim I am wrong and I am simply ignoring your "facts". This is just plain silly. I can't believe you've done this twice and expect me not to call you out on it.

Also I did post facts you just ignore them. You basically ignore any point that you cannot figure out how to challenge. For example, the Cure III thing based on your logic that we have to compare fairly. I followed your rules, now you are claiming that range and MP matters all of a sudden? I thought we just needed to compare equally the oGCD or GCD? MP and range didn't matter in the comparisons that you posted about Earthly Star + GCDs that I quoted so why does it matter for mine? Also your Diurnal math you posted; like I said in my earlier post you conveniently left out the math for Medica II and Aspected Helios and it is well... extremely obvious why you left it out.

These quotes are about Diurnal numbers! Have to make sure I mention it, you know, because you might reply to it and flip flop it back to Nocturnal again

15 more potency on Benefic II isn't negligible? Even when Benefic I is 10 potency lower so the gap is actually only 5 potency total? Five You do realize that 5 potency difference is on average like 50 HP difference at i339. I would say that is completely negligible.

As for Helios if you are going to add that in there then where is Medica II and Aspected Helios? I am guessing you probably left it out because Medica II is actually 40 more potency than Aspected Helios after you total it. So Medica I lags behind Helios by 30 but Medica II gains ahead of Aspected Helios by 40 so again it makes the gap only 10 potency difference but in favour of WHM this time.

So yes, this conversation isn't going anywhere since you selectively ignore anything that doesn't suit your agenda that you feel WHM potency is way lower than AST.

Also I'd like to remind you again that Nocturnal AST is a WHM's healing partner, not their competition. Noct AST and WHM do not compete with each other. They are symbiotic healing partners. So I am still massively confused why you feel the need to compare them. It's not like Noct ASTs are taking your raid spots since if they have a Noct AST the group would WANT your WHM. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It seems to me you are simply using Nocturnal vs WHM as a means to further your agenda even though it makes zero sense to compare them unless there was an insanely large discrepancy where the Noct AST + WHM team was healing for way too much compared to the other compositions, but I don't see you claiming that as being a problem.

So sure, go have "constructive" discussions with people about your "fair and equal" comparisons when you are actively trying to compare WHM to Noct AST when one is a regen healer and the other is a shielder. /shrug

[deos]

personally i feel WHM should really get some kind of aoe mitigation tool, but it would have to be highly limited

an idea for a new skill i just had:
cd: 180 seconds (no interaction with lillies)
effect: will grant a 10 second buff that will extend the next used ability of the following:
- Divine Benison: increase shield from 15% to 25%
- Tetragrammaton: increase healing potency by 450
- Assize: increase dmg potency by 200
- Asylum: also grants everybody standing inside 10% dmg reduction

this could give huge boosts in situations of dire need including an aoe mitigration (with the smallest area of them all) but on a rather high cd. and due to the assize dmg it could also be used in casual content or when burst dmg is needed.

it could also affect thin air (extends duration by 8 seconds) and/or PoM (grants everybody healed with cure I/II during the duration a 20 second 10% haste buff), but those could be over the top

thoughts?

[Ghishlain]

FFlogs will only show the last two weeks of parses on this page (https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...&class=Healers), which could very well mean WHMs are getting ready for progging ultimate. It's not really accurate of the whole raid tier. If you're looking at a different page of stats, please share!

4,030 recorded AST clears.

4,994 recorded WHM clears.

2,534 recorded SCH clears.

Now there might be some overlap as players on these lists would've potentially cleared it on two healers or even all three, but it still puts WHM clears pretty far ahead of the pack compared to SCH if we're looking at this in the context of Loreleidiangelo's comment.

As far as I can see this tracks every individual who has uploaded a log and cleared the content. There are some entries on here that dates August 8th ( Entry 3884 on this page ) which is about three weeks after Savage was released. I'd say that encompasses the majority of the raid tier at this point.

Without knowing how much overlap there is between the three healers, this won't be a perfect judge of total clears. With that being said the healer type that has cleared O4S since the beginning (34.87% AST | 43.21% WHM | 21.92% SCH) has shifted to ~-4% WHM and ~+4% SCH when compared to what's been uploaded in the last two weeks (34.51% AST | 39.28% WHM | 26.21% SCH ) based on the data provided.

Take what you will from the data.

[DotsNnots]

snip

Thanks for providing these links! It's interesting to see this data, but what I'd be more interested in is seeing the total number of parses uploaded per class and seeing if the variance between the division shows a different trend. This just shows each person who has cleared on a class, so each player shows up once, but not the total number of times they've cleared per class. It would be interesting to track the trends to see if people tended to clear on one class and then change to another for repeated farms, or if they stayed on the same class the whole time.

===

Also I'm not sure why Noct AST isn't relevant to the conversation if we're comparing capabilities of all three healers? No one is talking about a competition between the two, just why an AOE mitigation tool would be beneficial to WHM, but you keep bringing the topic back to AST vs WHM. Instead of "this will/won't help WHM because ..." you stick to "WHM doesn't need it. No WHM doesn't need it. But SCH didn't need buffs to succor. AST didn't need buffs to cards like spear, but it made the game better for it, we're arguing this would make the game better for it.

But I've been discussing the main topic while referring to both stances the entire time, or expecting others to infer the missing stance data if I didn't initially provide it, so I'm not sure what the concern is, I've never been "only talking about Noct". I just didn't bother addressing your comments because I could easily point out that you can extend dir's hot tick with CO, making it more potent than med 2, which you should be doing pretty frequently in a fight (like rouse + WD, except every 2 minutes instead of 1), and in a 10 minute fight or more (which many are) you match or surpass the potency of med2 as long as you use CO on CD. And then to be overly semantic, if you largessed and then CO the aspected helios the potency gap is even bigger in AST's favor than a largessed med 2, which again you would tie all of these healing CDs together. Plus if you're smart you'll also tie CO with CU and get another hot that's now way more potent than asylum, with the limitation of freezing the AST for about a GCD till it applies, but doesn't have the long term placement limitations of asylum (because for some reason party members avoid staying in the bubble like it's the plague). But you conveniently didn't bother to mention common healing strategies.

And again I could argue semantics about cure III spam. The reality is that WHM has functionally fewer skills, and way fewer free oGCDs than the other healers. You can't compare [1 oGCD] from SCH/AST to a [GCD + 2 oGCDs] from WHM, adding that that's 2 of the only 3 AOE healing oGCDs they have. That's like comparing someone who has 10 apples and 10 oranges to someone who has 11 oranges and only 3 apples; it's a hugely imbalanced comparison. You'd have to look at the other costs and checks that are added in to achieve balance, the obvious one is the sacrifice of DPS and mp for the burst. Each GCD spent on a cure3 is a big DPS loss and a big mp lost which can ALSO mean further DPS loss, this is offset by the increased potency of WHM's damage skills but only if used in moderation. And each oGCD used costs, well generally, next to nothing.

But again, I'm speaking at high levels of optimization that, frankly I don't think you,

have the experience to be claiming what you are claiming.

[Miste]

I just didn't bother addressing your comments because I could easily point out that you can extend dir's hot tick with CO making it more potent than med 2, if you largessed and then CO the aspected helios the potency gap is even bigger in AST's favor than a largessed med 2

So in other words...let me just compare these like you did before with Earthly Star, you know, when you were trying to show that WHM ends up lower than the other healers in the same equal amount of GCD and oGCDs.

Here is the post if you forgot

And if you want to fairly compare the "what if" of 2 or 3 PI stacks, then you'd have to add 2 or 3 respective GCD heals from the other two healers for the comparison to work (in which case WHM still comes out the lowest) i.e., if I need to pop 3 medicas to use PI with 3 stacks, then the comparison should show 3 succors or 3 helios.

So let us get to tackling these comparisons following your rules from previous posts about being "fair and equal".

Aspected Helios + Celestial Opposition versus Medica II.

So AST has to use a GCD + oGCD to obtain the same potency as one WHM GCD . I see.

Next one...

Largesse + Aspected Helios + Celestial Opposition versus Largesse + Medica II. Hmm...

So AST has to use an oGCD + GCD + oGCD to obtain the same potency as WHM oGCD + GCD

Remember this?
Assize (300 potency) + Medica I (300 potency) + 1 Plenary (150 potency) = 750 potency

I posted this to assist another WHM in this thread as you know being helpful because I understand how annoying range can be for our healing spells and it is a powerful combination with larger range than Cure III that any good WHM could use to heal up after a huge AoE attack.

Hmm conveniently it is an oGCD + GCD + oGCD

I mean at this point I don't even have to argue with you, you can pretty much argue with yourself. I can just quote you instead of typing it out.

No you didn't. You used specifically selected skills to compare to make your point while manipulating the presentation or leaving out important deals. You tried to compare apples to oranges when you frankly can't. You compared things like two WHM oGCDs and one GCD to one scholar oGCD. That's not even practical.

I mean you even contradict yourself right in this same post:

You can't compare [1 oGCD] from SCH/AST to a [GCD + 2 oGCDs] from WHM, adding that that's 2 of the only 3 AOE healing oGCDs they have. That's like comparing someone who has 10 apples and 10 oranges to someone who has 11 oranges and only 3 apples; it's a hugely imbalanced comparison.

But you conveniently didn't bother to mention common healing strategies.

I didn't mention healing strategies because you said you cannot compare anything like that. You said we have to be fair and only compare GCD and oGCD equally. I mean that basically limits us to not talking about healing strategies because obviously when you heal content you don't worry about your oGCDs and GCDs being equal to your other healer lol

I think the question was stemming more from why the comparison is of an oGCD + GCD + oGCD to just a single oGCD from AST/SCH.

If you wanted a more similar comparison it should be Assize + Medica + PI to Succor + indom or helios/aspected heilos (either, not both) + earthly star. I don't mind not comparing an equivalent to PI because it's dependent on the GCD before it, but to not include a GCD from the other two healers is just silly, why compare a single instant cast skill to a GCD plus to oGCDs that either have to be weaved, or will clip the GCD? And if you want to fairly compare the "what if" of 2 or 3 PI stacks, then you'd have to add 2 or 3 respective GCD heals from the other two healers for the comparison to work (in which case WHM still comes out the lowest) i.e., if I need to pop 3 medicas to use PI with 3 stacks, then the comparison should show 3 succors or 3 helios

I said I didn't want to apples to apples compare, but if we're going to talk about it, at least do it fairly.

You'd have to look at the other costs and checks that are added in to achieve balance

So in other words...you are just saying what I said pages ago... more than once even.

Yet, you kept denying it even though I said it pages ago and you still kept trying to say we have to compare fairly by comparing the oGCD and GCDs equally....well until now anyway....

The backpedaling is getting extreme.

My formula you copy and pasted was simply to help Exiled adjust due to her saying she has issues with Cure III's range. WHM has an option to increase the range by a lot, but by having to use extra spells/abilities, but then it also overtakes Earthly Star's healing and range as well. You use more yes, but you also gain advantages lol

Again you are comparing this as if all jobs play exactly the same to complain WHM is weaker than AST and SCH. I said over and over all the healers play differently so they obtain similar results in different ways.

This is why I mentioned before that you cannot simply pick apart each healer's toolkit and compare just single items against other single items or selective parts of the toolkit against other selective parts. All the healers play differently so they have different tools to obtain similar results to the other healers. So sometimes you may have to examine the toolkit on a larger scale and compare multiple items to one item or vice versa.

Simply put strictly comparing potency of 1-3 different spells in order to claim that one healer is weaker than another just doesn't show the entire picture.

Each GCD spent on a cure3 is a big DPS loss

Using CU is a DPS loss too.

But again, I'm speaking at high levels of optimization

If this is what high levels of optimization is like then I very happily accept your judgement

[Estelle9lives]

And again I could argue semantics about cure III spam. The reality is that WHM has functionally fewer skills, and way fewer free oGCDs than the other healers. You can't compare [1 oGCD] from SCH/AST to a [GCD + 2 oGCDs] from WHM, adding that that's 2 of the only 3 AOE healing oGCDs they have. That's like comparing someone who has 10 apples and 10 oranges to someone who has 11 oranges and only 3 apples; it's a hugely imbalanced comparison. You'd have to look at the other costs and checks that are added in to achieve balance, the obvious one is the sacrifice of DPS and mp for the burst. Each GCD spent on a cure3 is a big DPS loss and a big mp lost which can ALSO mean further DPS loss, this is offset by the increased potency of WHM's damage skills but only if used in moderation. And each oGCD used costs, well generally, next to nothing.

I'm confused about this statement. How does the other healers have way more OGCD healing options?

AST: Essential Dignity (40s CD, variable potency, from 400 to 1000 potency), Earthly Star (60s CD, up to 800 potency)
WHM: Tetragrammaton (60s CD subject to Lily variation, 700 potency), Benediction (180s CD, healing equal to over 2000 potency+), Assize (60s CD subject to Lily variation, 300 potency), Asylum (90s CD subject to Lily variation, 800 potency over 24s), Plenary Indulgence (60s CD, 150-450 potency)
SCH: Lustrate (1s CD, 600 potency), Indomitability (30s CD, 500 potency), Rouse + Whispering Dawn (60s CD, 980 potency over 21s), Excogitation (45s CD, 800 potency)


WHM is the healer with the most OGCD healing options. You could argue that a SCH spamming Lustrate has more overall output, but for SCH specifically, each OGCD they spend on healing is 150 potency lost from an Energy Drain.

mon healing strategies.
Each GCD spent on a cure3 is a big DPS loss and a big mp lost which can ALSO mean further DPS loss, this is offset by the increased potency of WHM's damage skills but only if used in moderation. And each oGCD used costs, well generally, next to nothing.

That goes for just about every healer ever, each GCD you spend on healing is a DPS loss. MP cost of spells is irrelevant for WHM, they have nigh infinite MP if you know how to use your cooldowns. You will never run dry unless you die twice in a row or something of the sort. I don't come even close to running out of mana even on fights where I was able to pull close to 99% active time or fights where I abuse Cure III (O4S).

[Sebazy]

It's pretty hard to consider Assize as a purely healing oGCD really, I'll hold it for a few seconds if I know a fluff aoe is coming up that it'll take care of but it's a bit of a drop in the ocean compared to most Savage AoEs. It's pretty much the standard for raiding WHMs to mash it on cooldown irrespective of healing with the only real pauses being for bonus DPS opportunities (Aka O3S adds and O4S meteors).

PI is similarly placed, I admit to using it as an oGCD of sorts for Delta attack on O4S, but otherwise it's better to think of it as more of a one shot Largesse style ability.

[Estelle9lives]

True enough, I mostly use Assize for damage purposes in sync with Trick Attack, but so it happens that it ends up syncing with a lot of Almagests in O4S haha

There are only 2 situations where I hold Assize, those being Mindjack + Dark Token (if followed by the blue panel there's little to no time to hardcast any heal) and Fire III into Holy.

PI has the disadvantage of needing buildup but it's still an OGCD free heal that can easily replace an extra Medica/Cure III on situations like Dimensional Wave spam into Books/Protean Waltz or the punches at the end of O4S.

[DotsNnots]

I'm confused about this statement. How does the other healers have way more OGCD healing options?

AST: Essential Dignity (40s CD, variable potency, from 400 to 1000 potency), Earthly Star (60s CD, up to 800 potency)
WHM: Tetragrammaton (60s CD subject to Lily variation, 700 potency), Benediction (180s CD, healing equal to over 2000 potency+), Assize (60s CD subject to Lily variation, 300 potency), Asylum (90s CD subject to Lily variation, 800 potency over 24s), Plenary Indulgence (60s CD, 150-450 potency)
SCH: Lustrate (1s CD, 600 potency), Indomitability (30s CD, 500 potency), Rouse + Whispering Dawn (60s CD, 980 potency over 21s), Excogitation (45s CD, 800 potency)


WHM is the healer with the most OGCD healing options. You could argue that a SCH spamming Lustrate has more overall output, but for SCH specifically, each OGCD they spend on healing is 150 potency lost from an Energy Drain.

I was referring to AOE healing oGCDs (which I said in the second sentence). And you didn't mention any of the healer CDs that also significantly reduce the AOE heal burden without actually being a heal:

WHM: Assize, Asylum, Plenary Indulgence (grey because this is GCD tied), I'll even through PoM in there although VERY rarely is this used as a healing CD. That's 2 standard healing oGCDs and 2 like "half" ones.
AST: Earthly Star, Collective Unconscious, Lightspeed (including because I also included PoM, although unlike PoM this is always used as a healing CD), and in terms of options AST also could potentially have an AOE bole, which I'm only mentioning because it's still a capability they have, and I also want to compare capabilities in addition to feasibility. So again 2 standard healing oGCDs and 2 "half" ones, one used reliably as a healer CD, the other completely unreliable but fancy in a pinch. I'd give them a slight edge over WHM.
SCH: Oh boy, Sacred Soil, Whispering Dawn, Emergency Tactics (tied to a GCD), Indom, Fey Illumination, Fey Covenant, Deployment Tactics (tied to a GCD), could technically throw dissipation in here. so 5 standard oGCDs, 2 "half" ones tied to a GCD, and one funky one (dissipation) I'd throw in the same class as AOE bole or PoM in terms of not counting it. Obvious edge SCH.


Although if you're going to tally up ALL healer CDs between healers:
WHM: Tetra, Benediction, PI, Assize, Asylum, divine benison, and I'll toss in Thin Air and PoM because they're CDs too. If we count each, that's "really" 7 (with one that's GCD tied) but technically 8, because PoM, and you could make a case for assize.
AST: Essential Dignity, Earthly Star, Collective Unconscious, Synastry, Lady of Crowns (unpredictable but you will get these in the course of a fight so it's worth including), Light speed, Celestial Opposition (because it extends healer buffs), could also count Bole because a lucky bole before a tank buster could save a heal GCD for DPS. So that's 7 (one that MIGHT mean a GCD loss for holding still), and 8 if you count bole. About even between AST and WHM.
SCH: Lustrate, Emergency Tactics (GDC Tied), Excog, Aetherpact, Fey covenant, Fey illumination, Sacred Soil, Whispering Dawn + Rouse (not going to count rouse separately), Deployment Tactics (GCD tied), and Dissipation (which is iffy). So that's 9 with two GCD tied, and 10 if you count dissipation. Obvious edge SCH.

In terms of oGCD capabilities, that's it for WHM, but AST still has cards to play with which is a huge boon, and SCH still has chain strategem (plus fey wind in the opener). Cards and Chain add much more to the party than cure3.
Now in terms of adding in remaining GCDs to compare capabilities WHM has 1 more healing GCD than AST, and 2 more than SCH (I'm just counting embrace like a standard GCD because even though it doesn't cost anything it functions more like a GCD than an oGCD). But functionality wise AST has cards (and no one is going to claim the boon from cards is equivalent to the boon from cure3). And SCH has extra DPS skills over WHM/AST in addition to their extra oGCDs.

I'm also not sure why we're parading around cure3 like it's some balancing god. Cure3 is handy, don't get me wrong, but it can be pretty niche and ends up causing a lot of overheal, especially when we're past the first couple of weeks of a tier. You can't say the same for cards or the flexibility SCH has. And that's really the point, not a potency by potency comparison, but what each of the three healers can functionally do and if that's balanced. Healing wise, AST and WHM are relatively even, but AST has cards and whm has cure 3. And SCH, as always, has the most things they can do.


Also Miste you're cherry picking skills again for your own narrative. I was being facetious when throwing around the word "fair" in the first post because you were creating specific scenarios to prove your potency comparisons and I was pointing out that if you were going to generate unrealistic bubbles to do comparisons in, at least make it fair within that idealistic bubble. Which is why I worked within your bubble in one post, and then specifically said you can't do this in a separate post, because it's apples to oranges. To be practical you need to consider standard healing strategies like combining dir aspected helios with CU. Also in your idealistic bubble example I was specifically referring to building stacks for PI, which requires an AoE GCD that actually heals (can't be 100% overheal). You don't med2 three times in a row for anything, ever. But again your comparisons are one-off bubble instances, instead of considering the course of a whole fight where you will use all of the tools available in your tool kit in an optimal way.

[Tridus]

edit incoming

I do love this forum and how its oddball rules create these fun little situations.