Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[DotsNnots]

Actually I'd say SE doesn't want WHM to have mitigation. Yes we used to have stoneskin, but look back a little further and see how SE have reacted over the years to strategy that have revolved around it. Early T5 required timed Stoneskin+Adlo for the tank to survive death sentence (And a timed Cure II between the DS and infirmity for good measure). Oh hey, WHM proceeded to lose it's % bonus on SS. Remember how quickly the SS2 in combat bug after a raise got stomped out? Whilst Benison is powerful, I can't help but feel that tying it to the Lily mechanic was a deliberate move to make it awkward to rely on rather than an effort to make Lilys seem more valuable.

Uh, so you speak for SE now? I think you make a TON of baseless claims here that could just as easily be explained as balance adjustments or other theories. Unfortunately without anything remotely close to hard evidence I can't give you much credibility here. Some of my claims/opinions are equally baseless so I'm not going to repeat those ones, I just don't think you can go around saying "WHM shouldn't get mitigation because SE thinks they shouldn't have mitigation," (when it's really you/similar minded people who think so, vs. the rest of us).

I can't find a single O4S or Shinryu in PF currently that's excluding WHM and I can't say I've noticed it with any degree of regularity when I've had the pug itch. I've pretty much played WHM exclusively since Omega Savage hit and I've had no issues. Maybe it's an NA thing? /shrug.

TBH (and I don't mean this to sound derogatory by any stretch) it sounds like you've had a bit of a "sheltered healer" life with groups ready to go at the start of a raid launch. PuG life is a rough life, please believe me. And just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not happening or not real or not prevalent.

Rolling over into your point about WHM and speed runs, maybe it's because of the company I keep, but I see highly active WHMs in highly skilled company that have been working hard the last few weeks and are ready and prepped for tomorrow.

I mean raid launch is tomorrow, it would make sense for those who are switching back to WHM for prog to prep their prog class xD

Anything is possible with good Shroud timing it seems <3 Fun fact: Despite my Cure III addiction, the other WHM was pulling more hate than me on the occasions where we overstepped the line (despite me healing faster and harder for the most part). Fun Fact 2: I didn't screenshot it, but we got 4 or 5 first kills on that linked run. Gogo late and hideously overgeared progression =(

Could be smoke screen timings or any number of things. Looks fun, but in terms of simplicity even a small non-stackable mitigation type thing there would've made it easier (thinking in terms of prog or optimal comps)

I thought I did a few times TBH? Simply put, being able to handily get squishies up to 50k eHP without some massive caveats would be problematic for mechanics centred around aoe damage. Flares would virtually trivialised greatly reducing the difficulty of Faustdeath in particular, not to mention I suspect it'd have a significant impact on several of O3S's mechanics as well. This is of course based on the thinking that a WHM bubble would stack with SCH/AST Galvs, if that isn't your thinking then I'll accept that my point is void here.

I'm not sure I get your point. Mitigation isn't going to get them up to 50k hp? Mitigation is just going to take the edge of the initial hit. Also I think you're assuming the mitigation would be more powerful or potent than I am, like significantly. Just to use collective unconscious as an example if you gave WHM the exact equivalent minus the regen(again not saying we should, just want to contextually base the conversation) it would be useless for flares and a variety of mechanics because its caveat is the placement and casting lock. It would need to have SOME cost/detriment to use (honestly building lilies isn't a completely horrible idea because it would force you to plan the proc and give some limitation, but maybe not enough). Even something like the old stoneskin 2 with it's stupid long cast time and a high mp cost, and throw in a long CD for funsies, or some other caveat (and maybe make it not stack with succor but can stack with CU / soil or I dunno not going to design it here!)

tl;dr; asking for something as punishing/hampering as CU without its regen: a pain to use, a long CD, somewhat niche uses, but a good took for the right mechanics.

On the bright side, I suspect we can both agree that AST was a bit of a dumpster fire all told

No arguments from me!

If WHM was to be given an AoE mitigation tool (shield), it should be less powerful that N.AST and SCH counterparts -100 to 150 potency-, and shouldn't be stackable with any other shield (including double WHM).
Slap a 3s cast time on it and a hefty mana cost, or a 3mn cooldown for an oGCD and that'd be perfect.

That's pretty much about it. Any other way (stronger shield, spammable and/or stackable) would make it broken. So there's not a hundred ways of implementing such a mitigation tool...

... If it's even needed. But that subject is now no a 16 pages long thread and nobody managed to put an end to it.

Like I said, I don't think anyone is suggesting a GCD shield for WHM like old stoneskin was. Something more like a complicated aoe divine benison that was a pain to proc but had uses for certain mechanics.

[DotsNnots]

Wow, so that didn't take long at all. Figured I'd give PF a quick skim while I'm crafting. All 3 of these are from the past 5 minutes (on primal if it matters):

https://imgur.com/KMLOfKS
https://imgur.com/5QC5Kbx
https://imgur.com/13MDzNm

[Miste]

The opinion of speed runner/end game meta folks doesn’t count because they’re a minority, but then when you feel like someone doesn’t have enough of this similar end game experience you invalidate their opinion as well until they provide proof?

To be fair you kind of jumped in here and probably don't fully understand why people misunderstood them.

Some of the things they were claiming were confronted with facts not that their opinion is invalid due to no reason. If you try to claim Indom and Earthly Star by themselves heals for more than anything WHM can do well I showed with facts that just isn't true.

They basically said things that don't make sense to some of us, and made some pretty out there claims that seem to show a lack of experience in higher end content. We were wrong and accepted that, but we clarified why it confused us.

“White mage isn’t supposed to have mitigation.” Uh, what, why? Because you’ve dreamed up some identity definitions for the classes on your own, and won’t allow anything other than this ideal to fit? There’s nothing that says WHM can’t have mitigation. They used to have mitigation with stoneskin I and II.

SE has actually said in live letters that WHM is supposed to be a pure healer. So it seems to me they made the definitions not us. Whether or not we want to agree with them is just our own opinions. They kind made the game, not us.

You might have a point about Stoneskin II if it was able to be cast in combat, but it wasn't. WHM has never had an AoE shield that was usable in combat. Stoneskin II was just the beginning of fight and that's it.

I’m also fairly certain OP isn’t requesting a GCD shield like succor or noct aspected helios, so I’m not sure why we’re comparing those. Some long CD oGCD shield that functions similarly to soil or collective unconsciousness I think is what they’re after.

They actually did ask for a shield same power as Succor and Aspected Helios.

I mean I even said a long cooldown AoE shield that isn't too strong is totally fine and as long as it is implemented properly, but WHM simply doesn't need shields as powerful as SCH or Noct AST and I guess you missed the post where they specifically asked for that then?

Also, to all the “don’t run double WHM’ comments, have you ever had a dead co-healer (or one just raised with no mana) and desperately needed mitigation to save the prog, but could do nothing? It happens quite often. Think of meteors in ExDad, or pyretic in 11s. Not only is it a bit silly that the healer supposedly “slotted” for prog (which isn’t the case, by the way) doesn’t have a tool to deal with this scenario, but flip it around and if the WHM was dead, both AST and SCH have some big bursty heals or CDs to deal with what a WHM would’ve normally handled (insert ET succor (which is only a 20s CD btw, can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

Simple. Don't have a dead co-healer?

Do you really think it is supposed to be easy to recover from a healer death in progress for savage? A group does not consist of just one player. It is a team effort and if your shielder dies well for one they shouldn't have died and if a wipe happens then it is simply too bad so sad because I am quite sure SE didn't want it to be easy to recover from deaths in the hardest content they add to the game.

For two the rest of your group has tools and responsibility to help save the prog from a wipe. It should not be simply only the healer left alive in charge of trying to pick up the pieces. Bard's have Troubadour, Casters have Addle, Tanks have reprisal and PLD can help heal and even has two AoE mitigations Divine Veil and Passage of Arms, WAR now has Shake it Off, RDMs can raise and heal, SMNs can raise. It isn't supposed to be easy to recover so expecting the lone healer still alive to do it unassisted is just plain wrong anyway no matter which healer job they are on.

As for the 11s reference that was back where healers were not balanced, but this isn't 3.4 anymore.

can we stop throwing it around that it’s so “locked” how often do you need to spam multiple AOE heals in under 20s?? Damage in this game comes in bursts and waves, and is rarely constant) or largesse’d or lightspeed helios spam).

And? How often would WHM need this shield you want for them? How often are there situations where a group wipes for the sole reason that WHM has no AoE shield?

Would you like proof of WHM being excluded from groups? Head to the reddit recruitment sub, find the total number of posts looking for a healer in the past, I dunno, 30 days and then from those posts count the numbers specifically looking for only AST or SCH vs. including WHM. There’s your numbers, go find them. Feel free to add recruitment posts from discord servers. Oh and don’t forget to check their fflogs and see that they’re often either looking for a SCH because they have an AST, or vice versa, or if they’re willing to take SCH or AST, it’s not usually because they already have a WHM, just that their current healer is willing to flex. Speed running metas are pervasive even within groups who have no business trying to force them. Groups in PFs DO actively exclude WHM (among other classes). Even WhyMaige made a comic about it, obviously I’m not the only one encountering this. No I don’t bother to screenshot PF just to service forum justice for situations I haven’t even imagined happening yet. That’s a ridiculous request.

None of this proves WHM is being excluded at a level where it makes any difference. For example, for every 1 group not willing to take a WHM for whatever reason there may be 30 more who want or are totally fine to accept a WHM.

Proves nothing.

Nice cheap shot at me for asking for proof. It wasn't for "forum justice" it was simply showing that there is no evidence to support the claim that "WHM will immediately be ejected from all parties.", yet here we go again with someone trying to claim WHMs are suffering from massive exclusion with no factual evidence to back up their claim beyond limited community resources that do not cover the entire community as a whole.

Try again.

I had been looking for a group for the past several weeks, as a WHM who also likes to optimize and speedkill, but willing to go with a fun average group too, I’m not picky. The first week I posted as a WHM LFG - 0 hits. The next time where I posted I’d be willing to switch to SCH or AST? 5 responses.

Just because you personally got 0 responses....that proves absolutely nothing. It is simply your personal experience only.

There are tons of factors that could have contributed to your lack of responses on WHM compared to the time you mentioned SCH or AST.

Day of the week.
Time of day.
Timezones.
Random fluctuation of player schedules where a lot of people were simply not online at the time.
Maybe the groups looking at that time already had a WHM.
Maybe WHM is popular on your DC and most groups are lacking SCHs or ASTs.
Your personal advertised experience for the fights doesn't match up to what the groups looking for healers want
Maybe there were no groups who needed any healer at all those days and the days you brought SCH and AST into the mix there happen to be many groups looking for healers in general.

So yay, I’m relevant for a couple of weeks and then get forced into a different role or out of a group (yes it happens).

I think the forums would be in an uproar if tons of WHMs were getting kicked from their statics simply for being a WHM. I've only seen two people now claiming that exclusion is a thing. Where are the rest?

I mean progress is mostly over for this tier as we are over 3 months into it....where are the other WHMs who have been suddenly forced to change to AST or kicked out of their statics just because they wanted to play WHM?

Also not one person has said why giving WHM a small long oGCD mitigation skill is a bad thing.

Well to fire this back at you not one person has given a really good reason why WHM needs it either and for development time to be spent on it for something that isn't unique and only really is helpful in a very small amount of situations. Why not give them something unique instead of just giving them shields. I mean like I said it isn't like they have zero shields they just got a single target one instead of AoE.

“I’m a SCH so I can put out a beefy AOE regen, single target regen, big AOE or single target shields, buff the healing potency of the whole group, increase crit on the boss, increase the attack speed of the whole party, put out a pretty bursty raw aoe heal every 30s. But WHM should only be able to 2 of the things I can, raw heals and regens.”

SCH cannot use all of the fairy buffs at the same time. Two fairies with same cooldowns. If you use Eos and use her abilities then Selene's are automatically on cooldown as well and cannot be used even if you summoned her until the cooldowns have reset so you basically forgo that cooldown cycle. SCH needs to pick what they want a DPS boost or extra healing. Not both so whichever buffs you pick there is still a drawback.

The rest of the SCH kit? WHM can do everything there except for the AoE shield, buffing party healing, and the Fey Wind (although they have their own personal Fey Wind with PoM; it's not AoE but it is more potent than Fey Wind. SCH does not have PoM) and two of those are fairy buffs so the SCH has to choose between one or the other they cannot benefit from both at the same time.

I’m an dir AST my MAIN GCD heals are more potent than WHM

To use your phrasing here.....

"lolwut"?

I have both AST and WHM same item level and their Cure II/Benefic II heal for on average around the same amount and actually Benefic I healing on average a couple hundred lower than WHM's Cure I.

At least if you are going claim this stuff test it first.

plus I have the highest potency heal in the game

AST? Has the highest potency heal in the game?

Benediction says Hi

I understand it has no potency per say, but it is a 100% heal. No other healer has a heal that is a guaranteed full HP heal except WHM. That is automatically the best potency.

plus even as dir I can mitigate

Yeah, CU is situational and also has a huge drawback to it. Also like I said earlier WHM has divine benison and diurnal ast doesn't and I am not saying that because I think AST has to have a single target shield, you just seem to be forgetting that WHM does have mitigation it just isn't AoE. It's probably because WHM will always be paired with SCH or Noct AST in groups outside of just casual DF content and they both have AoE shields.

Like I said I am not actually against WHM getting an AoE shield if implemented properly like it not being able to stack with other shields etc because it may imbalance content, but some of this rant you posted seems a bit off to me. I mean I've said I wasn't against it in earlier posts, yet you take cheap shots at me. It doesn't do much good to get people on your side when they actually don't mind the idea then you take cheap shots at them for just asking someone to prove their claims in an open discussion.

[Miste]

Wow, so that didn't take long at all. Figured I'd give PF a quick skim while I'm crafting. All 3 of these are from the past 5 minutes (on primal if it matters):

https://imgur.com/KMLOfKS
https://imgur.com/5QC5Kbx
https://imgur.com/13MDzNm

Nice try, but I am on Primal too.

https://i.imgur.com/ZNzbIRG.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/3zSrB8n.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/WoDk5pe.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/1VXcqMQ.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/CDG1XLv.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/RWZTaLV.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/Uu8RkCI.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/SzMDLOo.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/BtDEiBy.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/3kyr6Nf.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/2Ww0HoO.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/sZdzy40.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/uV80dq9.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/kLUecDn.png?2
https://i.imgur.com/WS0k1UW.png?3

All screenshots taken within 2-3 mins or so then uploaded. I only saw 2 groups out of all of these blocking WHM, one was actually that same one in your last image which is a parse run and one was actually the second one up where it's first healer was an AST.

The problem is unless you ask that group with the AST why they blocked it to SCH you might be assuming incorrectly that it is because they just don't want WHM. The AST in it simply may main Diurnal and has the most experience on Diurnal so they need their cohealer to be SCH.

In the end people can make PF's and choose whatever settings they personally want for it. That is what PF is for. The only reason it would end up a problem is if WHM is being excluded on a massive level, but um...why do all those groups in my screenshots have WHM and or are accepting WHM then?

I found 1 group excluding WHM and another group which is unknown since you would have to ask the leader or AST for context.

You found 2 groups excluding WHM with the other one being the same as above where you would need to ask the leader or AST for context.

So that is 2 groups total that can be proven excluding WHMs between the two of us one being the first image you posted and the other being the last image parsing group that we both saw, yet I found 15 groups with or accepting WHMs.

What exactly are you trying to prove or complain about here?

[loreleidiangelo]

I still don't get why people think that WHMs have "only 2-3 weeks of having a static" as though every group immediately jumps into the parse/speedrun mentality once they get content on farm. Our raid WHM is still a WHM - she SCHs some weeks for a change of pace, but never is she pressured or bullied into it. I think a lot more people couldn't give an F about speed runs than people who do, truth be told, and it's silly to see so many people making a stink about it as though it's indicative of some kind of flaw in healer balance. It's also disingenuous to pretend like DPS or tanks aren't coached or pestered into swapping to what's meta if your group IS one that cares about speedruns - there will always be a theoretical "best" for any given situation. WHM isn't a special snowflake in this regard. I am also on Primal and Miste's screenshot of PF is far more accurate to what I see on my server in my casual browsing.

Looking at FFLogs for Neo, SCHs are still the ones underrepresented for that fight, even after 4.1. WHMs are still top when it comes to uploaded parses, implying that more people still prefer using them for that fight over not.

[DotsNnots]

To be fair you kind of jumped in here and probably don't fully understand why people misunderstood them.

As I said, I read all 16 pages.

Some of the things they were claiming were confronted with facts not that their opinion is invalid due to no reason. If you try to claim Indom and Earthly Star by themselves heals for more than anything WHM can do well I showed with facts that just isn't true.

No you didn't. You used specifically selected skills to compare to make your point while manipulating the presentation or leaving out important deals. You tried to compare apples to oranges when you frankly can't. Both indom and earthy are oGCDs that are more potent than any WHM oGCD save PI which requires 3 GCD procs to even come close, so can't functionally count it as an oGCD. You compared things like two WHM oGCDs and one GCD to one scholar oGCD. That's not even practical.

SE has actually said in live letters that WHM is supposed to be a pure healer. So it seems to me they made the definitions not us. Whether or not we want to agree with them is just our own opinions.

This was mistranslated and later corrected to raw healer, and also then explained to mean that they the expectation for WHM isn't one where it doesn't do other things besides raw healing (like DPS). Also at no point was the definition of raw healer established or explained to mean "THEY CAN ONLY RAW HEAL AND HAVE NO OTHER TOOLS." Raw healing isn't mutually exclusive, not sure why you're assuming it is.

They actually did ask for a shield same power as Succor and Aspected Helios.

This is no where in the OP, to which I was referring to as the original point of discussion.

Simple. Don't have a dead co-healer?

Right, because everything will go swimmingly in prog and we'll 1shot. God forbid two healers have the tools to recover the missing WHM utility if a WHM goes down, but WHM can't have any tools to recover the missing utility if an AST or SCH goes down.

Proves nothing.

Right, multiple players telling you yes it's happened to us personally, hey here's some screenshots, hey go do the math so you can see yourself. But it doesn't fit with your argument so please keep denying we exist and are saying yes it's happened to me and others.

I think the forums would be in an uproar if tons of WHMs were getting kicked from their statics simply for being a WHM. I've only seen two people now claiming that exclusion is a thing. Where are the rest?

Actually no, not really. The amount of raiders on the forums is TINY. For various reasons I won't get into. But very few contribute on the OFs.

The rest of the SCH kit? WHM can do everything there except for the AoE shield, buffing party healing, and the Fey Wind (although they have their own personal Fey Wind with PoM; it's not AoE but it is more potent than Fey Wind.

Or single target shield on demand (benison requires a proc), or crit buff on the boss, or mitigation incoming damage with soil, or do a ton more 0 mp healing.

To use your phrasing here.....

"lolwut"?

I have both AST and WHM same item level and their Cure II/Benefic II heal for on average around the same amount and actually Benefic I healing on average a couple hundred lower than WHM's Cure I.

At least if you are going claim this stuff test it first.

Well thank you for proving that you lack awareness of the difference of healers and your inability to read tool tips or confirm with your own tests.

Base cure I potency: 450
Base cure II potency: 700
Base medica potency: 300

Base benefic I potency: 400
Base benefic II potency: 650
Base Helios potency: 300

Now read noct stance's tool tip: increases healing potency by 15%

actual potency:
Benefic I: 400 * 1.15 = 460
Benefic II: 650 * 1.15 = 747.5
Helios: 300 * 1.15 = 345
Aspected Helios: (150 + 225) * 1.15 = 431.25

Oh and ALL of them cost less mp than their WHM equivalents. So bigger heal and less cost.

AST? Has the highest potency heal in the game?

Benediction says Hi

Most potent AOE heal. The implied inference is quite plain.

Nice try, but I am on Primal too.

-stuff-

What exactly are you trying to prove or complain about here?

You asked for proof of PFs specifically excluding WHM and I provided them. I'm not entirely sure what your point is of posting a bunch of regular PFs? No one is arguing that there are parties that will take a WHM, the point is that WHM is the only healer that is actively excluded right now, and for a reason. None of your photos show either AST or SCH being actively excluded save one, which honestly because of the order of roles, looks like they had a WHM who left and they didn't update the PF (vs. the default order being specifically modified).

You can't say something doesn't happen because here are a bunch of parties where it doesn't. I just posted some where it does, your argument doesn't negate anything.

[DotsNnots]

I still don't get why people think that WHMs have "only 2-3 weeks of having a static" as though every group immediately jumps into the parse/speedrun mentality
...
Looking at FFLogs for Neo, SCHs are still the ones underrepresented for that fight, even after 4.1.

FFlogs will only show the last two weeks of parses on this page (https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...&class=Healers), which could very well mean WHMs are getting ready for progging ultimate. It's not really accurate of the whole raid tier. If you're looking at a different page of stats, please share!

Also I frequently get pressured into switching off WHM. Hi, I exist. Also of the groups I've encounter, a lot more push for me to switch than support my staying.

If you're without a group already it's MUCH harder to find one if you're trying to find one as a WHM. I don't get why people are invalidating the experiences of others who are clearly saying it's happened to them?

[Miste]

As I said, I read all 16 pages.

Reading and understanding are two different things. I will highlight below how you have misunderstood me.

No you didn't. You used specifically selected skills to compare to make your point while manipulating the presentation or leaving out important deals. You tried to compare apples to oranges when you frankly can't. Both indom and earthy are oGCDs that are more potent than any WHM oGCD save PI which requires 3 GCD procs to even come close, so can't functionally count it as an oGCD. You compared things like two WHM oGCDs and one GCD to one scholar oGCD. That's not even practical.

Yes I did.

They said Earthly Star and Indom trivializes any AoE healing and implied that WHM cannot do the same thing, but they can. Whether or not they have to use one extra oGCD to obtain that makes no difference to the point I was personally trying to make. So yes I did and I am clarifying to you what point I was personally trying to make. You are simply just trying to change the point into what you think it is.

This was mistranslated and later corrected to raw healer, and also then explained to mean that they the expectation for WHM isn't one where it doesn't do other things besides raw healing (like DPS). Also at no point was the definition of raw healer established or explained to mean "THEY CAN ONLY RAW HEAL AND HAVE NO OTHER TOOLS." Raw healing isn't mutually exclusive, not sure why you're assuming it is.

Raw healer and pure healer seem like the exact same thing to me. Seems open to interpretation so either way what I said still holds that it is simply up to the player's opinions whether or not we agree with what SE labels WHM as.

This is no where in the OP, to which I was referring to as the original point of discussion.

They didn't say it in the OP.

Right, because everything will go swimmingly in prog and we'll 1shot. God forbid two healers have the tools to recover the missing WHM utility if a WHM goes down, but WHM can't have any tools to recover the missing utility if an AST or SCH goes down.

Never said everything will go swimmingly so where did you get that from? All I said was it seems ridiculous you would expect to be able to easily recover from the death of a healer in savage prog no matter which healer it was who died. It's the hardest content in the game! It isn't supposed to be easy to fix when you have deaths.

Whether or not WHM has a harder or easier time recovering in that situation is simply your opinion and not necessarily a fact. For example in my experience I have an easier time recovering as WHM than I do on AST or SCH. So why should SE change WHM to deal with a situation that is just your opinion that WHM cannot recover as well as AST or SCH?

Right, multiple players telling you yes it's happened to us personally, hey here's some screenshots, hey go do the math so you can see yourself. But it doesn't fit with your argument so please keep denying we exist and are saying yes it's happened to me and others.

You said you read the entire thread so again I assumed you understood what point I was making, but you did not.

This whole thing about exclusion started because OP said "WHM will immediately be ejected from all parties." (Keyword: ALL; that is some massive exclusion right there) and claimed that it will happen because it happened before in 3.4 and that tons of WHMs were forced to switch to AST or kicked from their statics if they refused.

So I challenged their claim by asking for proof that this happened and proof that WHM was being ostracized in such a massive way. I needed the proof because I played WHM during that time and I was never excluded. Not even one time and I was 100% active throughout all of HW. I actually saw AST being excluded personally.

I mean you said you read it right, can you point out to me where I said "WHM is never excluded"? I never did, because I never claimed WHM is never excluded. I simply said that I personally have never been excluded and that no one can prove that WHM is being excluded on a massive scale that would make it necessary to examine and try to fix the problem.

I play WHM too, a lot, and I've never been excluded and I see PFs all over the place looking for healers and they rarely exclude any of them. This seems to hint that all this "WHM exclusion" is just a massive exaggeration or simply complaining to complain just because a small % of groups might exclude for personal reasons even though you have a vast amount of other groups open for you to join on WHM just fine.

I mean if I am scanning PF and looking for a group but I find one that doesn't want the job I am trying to play? I move on to the next group who wants my job and join that one instead. If there isn't any more groups up for the content I am trying to do then I wait a bit and check later or perish the thought I could even open up my own PF and recruit people I want to recruit to do the content.

If they don't want you in their PF group then they don't want you. Like I said it would only be an issue if WHM was being mass excluded by a lot of groups. Or I can even admit if it was like close to 25% of groups even it might warrant finding out and or trying to fix why 1/4th of the groups seem to not want WHM.

You keep mentioning outside sources like fflogs and in your own link WHM has a higher % of uploaded savage logs recently than any of the other healers with SCH being dead last. I mean sure you can assume it is simply because of something to do with Ultimate being released, but that is just an assumption. It may be that WHM is quite prominent in groups just like they were for the world firsts.

Actually no, not really. The amount of raiders on the forums is TINY. For various reasons I won't get into. But very few contribute on the OFs.

Hm...can't be proven. I could just take your word on it, but it isn't necessarily true.

Well thank you for proving that you lack awareness of the difference of healers and your inability to read tool tips or confirm with your own tests.

Thank you for proving you don't even remember or read your own words.

You said DIURNAL AST. Not Nocturnal. Diurnal is only 10% not 15% and since you said Diurnal that is what I tested and yes the heals heal for around the same amount with Benefic I trailing a bit behind Cure I.

Also you lack awareness of why Nocturnal has that 15% on it instead of 10%. Nocturnal AST is the alternative option to pair with a WHM instead of SCH. The reason Noct AST has a bit higher potency on their heals is because they do not have a fairy healbot that adds embrace and regen like WD and fairy buffs like Fey Illum.

I mean Nocturnal AST does not take WHMs spot, it is meant to be an alternative healer partner for WHM so why would you even care that they heal for more? They are partnered with your WHM and healing alongside you! Any benefit they have also helps you! Noct AST has to compare with SCH because that is the healer they are an alternative option to replace with, and that is why their sect gives a 15% instead of 10%. It has absolutely nothing to do with WHM or their potency.

You aren't looking at the big picture here.

Most potent AOE heal. The implied inference is quite plain.

Implied? You did not imply anything you said and I quote "plus I have the highest potency heal in the game" referring to AST.

Highest potency heal. Not highest potency AoE heal. So I mean you could just admit you weren't clear and I can admit that I misunderstood what you mean. See? It isn't hard.

Also even if you did mean "the most potent AoE heal in the game" you are still wrong.

WHM's Medica II heals for a total of 700 potency. If you use largesse it becomes higher potency than Earthly Star.

Even if you don't largesse it is only 20 potency off of Earthly Star and you can cast it whenever you want. Add plenary to it and it becomes an 850 potency heal that is 130 potency above Earthly Star. So yes you have to use an oGCD, but it doesn't simply "match" ES at that point it overtakes it by 130 potency.

So AST needs to use a 60s (corrected, got confused with CU cooldown) oGCD to obtain that kind of potency AoE healing and WHM also has to use a 60s oGCD to obtain that kind of potency AoE healing. I don't know about you but that seems real balanced to me. WHM still kind of beats AST here since their potency ends up at 850 instead of 720, but it seems totally fine to me and balanced since AST has other things in their toolkit that WHM doesn't and vice versa.

You simply cannot compare just one ability to another by itself sometimes because the jobs simply aren't designed like that. They are designed where they play differently to get similar results therefore you may have to compare two available pieces of a toolkit to a single one depending on the drawbacks of each one.

Earthly Star has a 60s cooldown in order to obtain that 720 potency heal. So WHM also needs to use a cooldown, Plenary, to obtain that much healing alongside an normal GCD AoE heal which is readily available whenever they feel like casting it. It is simply two different ways to get similar results with one being 130 potency higher than the other which makes up for the fact that WHM has to use two items from their toolkit and AST only uses one.

You asked for proof of PFs specifically excluding WHM and I provided them. I'm not entirely sure what your point is of posting a bunch of regular PFs? No one is arguing that there are parties that will take a WHM, the point is that WHM is the only healer that is actively excluded right now, and for a reason. None of your photos show either AST or SCH being actively excluded save one, which honestly because of the order of roles, looks like they had a WHM who left and they didn't update the PF (vs. the default order being specifically modified).

You can't say something doesn't happen because here are a bunch of parties where it doesn't. I just posted some where it does, your argument doesn't negate anything.

My point was to show that it doesn't seem to be on a massive scale that WHMs are being blocked out of groups and that is because that is what I was asking for proof of earlier in the thread...which you claimed you read, but again like I said reading and understanding is two different things.

I never asked for proof of simply PFs excluding WHM. I asked for proof proving they are excluded on a massive scale so you would need way more than just a few PF screenshots to prove that obviously. Three PFs (and one being unknown because you would have to ask for context) is hardly a massive scale lol I am totally confused on why I have to explain how that isn't "massive exclusion".

So yes you completely 100% misunderstood my whole argument about the WHM exclusion thing. You seem to think I said it doesn't exist ever. I didn't. I only said I personally have not seen it and that we need a lot of irrefutable evidence if we are going to claim that WHM has been or is being massively excluded from groups. So you need to give up here. You misunderstood. End of story.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Earthly star cooldown is 60s, and the 10s needed for max potency are inside the cooldown. The highest potency aoe heal is CU which has 90s cooldown, for 750 potency on everyone and up to 1200 if extended, this is the one With 90s cooldown.

[Sebazy]

Uh, so you speak for SE now?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this point I guess, perhaps I'm still stuck in the mentality of 'SCH brings the barriers and WHM brings the HP' from ARR /shrug.

it sounds like you've had a bit of a "sheltered healer" life

Yes and no. Whilst yes, I've worked hard to ensure I've earned a safe seat with good company over the years, doesn't mean I don't enjoy a good trap party too. You only have to look at how many post lockout A12s I uploaded at the end of HW to get an idea of that.

I mean raid launch is tomorrow, it would make sense for those who are switching back to WHM for prog to prep their prog class xD

You misunderstand me, they never switched away from WHM.

I'm not sure I get your point. Mitigation isn't going to get them up to 50k hp? Mitigation is just going to take the edge of the initial hit.

Effective HP. 40k caster, 4k galv, 6k 'aoe benison'. You've got 50k effective HP with little to no positioning requirements, throw in a Shake it off and it starts getting sillier. With the way that debuffs don't apply when a hit gets entirely absorbed, that's a dangerous slope that's inevitably going to start breaking mechanics.

Right, because everything will go swimmingly in prog and we'll 1shot. God forbid two healers have the tools to recover the missing WHM utility if a WHM goes down, but WHM can't have any tools to recover the missing utility if an AST or SCH goes down.

TBH I think this depends on your healer's mentality and ability more than anything. I generally had a good track record of saving raids when my 'weaker' or more DPS minded co healers went down irrespective of what healer I was on, but it was rare for them to be able to do the same as they would fail to react in time. On the flipside, sometimes it feels like my current co healer could carry a raid on RDM =(

I definitely feel your point here on progression and it's frustrating when people build entire theories around perfection that rarely adds up irrespective of the level your group plays at. Yet quite frankly, I'm inclined to think that if you can recover from a healer death during progression, then either the healer died at an opportune moment or perhaps the content is simply too forgiving. Healers shouldn't be dieing during progression (Not you Manipulator!).

Actually no, not really. The amount of raiders on the forums is TINY. For various reasons I won't get into. But very few contribute on the OFs.

I'll vouch for this sadly. A very significant portion of my FC is banned from the forums here with most of the remainder wanting nothing to do with it because of that (And I know of many more very prominent community figures that are also banned from here). I very nearly got a perma ban for my guides on how to sustain 1k DPS in the original HW dungeons as a SCH (I linked video replays that had very simplified DPS output, TOS break go!) and got away with it by the skin of my teeth to say the least.

At the risk of side tracking, I honestly think it'd be in SE's interest to put in a 'anything goes but keep it civil' section where parser talk is allowed. It's easy enough to hide it behind disclaimers and tick boxes, it'd give them a good source of insight into the often wacky world of high end raiding IMHO.

Also I frequently get pressured into switching off WHM. Hi, I exist. Also of the groups I've encounter, a lot more push for me to switch than support my staying.

Again, I see your point, but I wonder if you're being a bit sensitive about it? My co healer would prefer me to be on AST over WHM and frankly, if I group ran for more than an hour a week I'd likely have made the switch. The same could be said for our DPS tho. In the end we don't really have the will nor desire to push speed runs (outside of my co healer nudging me along to try and always improve our combined healer DPS ofc) so for the most part, we just go as what we enjoy/feel most comfortable playing. About the only person who's locked in is our Nin due to our tanks being massive DPS nuts

If you're without a group already it's MUCH harder to find one if you're trying to find one as a WHM.

Again, my experience suggests this is due to a never ending shortage of raid level SCHs (and by proxy, capable ASTs that would consider Noct to be their primary sect.

Pps, excuse me if some of my responses are a little harsh, please don't take it as me being salty or such. This is a legitimately enjoyable debate, thanks <3