Isn't it about time for WHM to get an AOE mitigation tool?

[Miste]

where statics pressured their healers to roll AST every single week until they either did so or left the static.

Okay let's try this again.

Your words alone does not prove that WHM was being ostracized by the majority of groups.

Where is your proof of this happening on a large scale? Are you just speaking of your own personal experience? If so then do you know anyone else who had the same thing happen to them? Got any screenshots of groups blocking out WHM after 3.4? I actually have screenshots I posted in another thread of at SB launch showing groups accepting all healers equally for statics and AST even still had their buffed balance card back then.

Here is the post if you want to see it:

This one hosted by a WHM so they wanted either SCH or AST to not stack another WHM.





^ Seems like all healers are sought after and wanted.

Keep in mind also these PFs were all BEFORE the patch notes from last night revealing AST balance nerfs. They were screenshotted last week.

I don't get why people seem to think that WHM or SCH are not wanted. Those screenshots are only taken just in one evening also within 10-20 mins of checking PFs here and there, plenty more if I kept checking.

Sure some groups might block one of the healers out just like some groups might refuse to take a specific DPS for reasons. It is their group so they can make the decision, but even so obviously there are MANY other groups to choose from if one group gives you crap for just not being an AST.

Likewise, Zurvan groups blocked WHM from joining because of the whole "skip soar" thing, and AST/SCH was a much better combo to achieve this. Luckily these were the last patches, or it would have went on even further.

Are you really going to deny all of this happening, and are you really trying to tell me it won't happen again even though all of the signs point to the same conclusion?
And again, I never said the exclusion was happening NOW but it WILL happen if things stay as they are.

I am not denying it per say. I am asking you to prove what you are claiming. Unless you can prove it with facts and evidence then your claims mean nothing and it is simply your own personal experience or opinion and not actually fact that WHMs were kicked or forced into playing AST by the majority of groups.

Also it took me over 100 runs of Zurvan to get my primal bird drop from him and finally win the roll. I farmed him....ON WHM. I was NEVER blocked out of a group for being a WHM unless there was already another WHM already in the group and they didn't want to stack same healer. This goes against what you are claiming. Over 100 runs and never ran into this WHM ostracizing that you claim is so common.

If what you are claiming was true and such a widespread blocking of WHMs from groups then why did I see none of it? Maybe I was just lucky? I don't know. That is why I am asking you for proof because without it then you are just blowing smoke.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Your words alone does not prove that WHM was being ostracized by the majority of groups.

Where is your proof of this happening on a large scale?

I think I know what you're saying here. You're adding in the word "majority" and promptly ignoring the fact that such an event did happen. Because it didn't happen to nearly everyone, it doesn't deserve to be addressed, is more or less what you're saying.

I don't have no proof, no. At the time I didn't think it was worth a screenshot. But everyone who played a healer knows how lacking and undesirable WHM was in that patch. And for every other normal Zurvan farm, there's was the "skip soar or disband" groups that blocked WHM for AST/SCH.
As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

But I suppose whatever I say now you can just pretend hasn't happened since I didn't capture a screenshot, so I'll just stop here.
I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

[Sebazy]

I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

They really aren't.

3.4's WHM was forever fighting a losing battle against MP efficiency whilst also bring massively outgunned on the utility front, it also had the double whammy of not only being seen as outright inferior to Diu-AST, but indirectly suffering because Noct-AST was viewed as subpar as well, not only did Diu-AST+SCH bring the most utility, it was the most self sufficient and safest healer comp to boot.

Compare that to what we have now.

WHM has by far the strongest MP self sufficiency of all 3 healers now meaning it's free to overheal and play cautiously to it's heart's content.
It suffered the least from the dot merger and thus has solid efficient DPS for days if needed. Gone are the days of Bang Bang OOM.
It's by far the most streamlined healer of the 3 IMHO with very little clunky fluff or quirky cooldowns to worry about. Perfect for progression time when you want to be focusing on learning, not your cooldowns.

Is it the min maxiest healer? Of course not. But unlike 3.4's WHM, it actually has very clear strengths and above all, a purpose now.

[Miste]

I think I know what you're saying here. You're adding in the word "majority" and promptly ignoring the fact that such an event did happen. Because it didn't happen to nearly everyone, it doesn't deserve to be addressed, is more or less what you're saying.

I don't have no proof, no. At the time I didn't think it was worth a screenshot. But everyone who played a healer knows how lacking and undesirable WHM was in that patch. And for every other normal Zurvan farm, there's was the "skip soar or disband" groups that blocked WHM for AST/SCH.
As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

But I suppose whatever I say now you can just pretend hasn't happened since I didn't capture a screenshot, so I'll just stop here.
I just really hope SE knows they're treading the same exact path with WHM in 3.0 and has something planned.

That's fine if you have no proof but then you are simply doomsaying and making claims based only on your own personal experience and have no facts to back it up. I mean you keep saying things like "everyone who played healer knows" yeah... I am a healer too you know and what I was telling you was my experience is the total opposite of yours which could hint that it was not as serious of a problem as you are trying to claim it was or is.

WHM will immediately be ejected from all parties.

I never said healer balance should not be addressed just because groups still take WHM, but you are making claims about WHM being ostracized at a level where it would be extremely hard or impossible to play WHM even if you wanted to.


As for how my experience is opposite of yours....

When 3.0 hit I immediately leveled AST and wanted to main it for Gordias (I had mained WHM from 1.0-3.0 thus far). AST was so underpowered at 3.0 that my static forced me to switch back to WHM.

So eventually I left that static because even after some buffs to AST that static likely would have still not let me main AST and I knew I loved AST. After Midas was released some people still refused to take me as an AST since I guess the stigma from the bad launch of it was still there and unlike WHM I did actually personally see groups purposefully blocking PF slots to WHM/SCH only, but I eventually found a group that would take me.

By the time Creator at 3.4 rolled around AST, in my experience, seemed to finally be accepted as much as SCH and WHM and, yes, I understand how WHM toolkit was lacking after the balance buff, and I agree with you since I played WHM too, BUT the BIG BUT here is that even if they were lacking toolkit wise groups still took my WHM and I never saw anyone block WHMs except for speedkill groups. I had an alt that I joined pug groups or statics missing a healer for the week and I played on WHM and no one ever blocked me out or told me to switch even though my alt had AST leveled as well.

Zurvan? Same thing I played WHM just fine no issues getting groups to farm my bird. Maybe there were some groups who did what you said to skip soar, but there were still many more groups who took my WHM so nothing was stopping me from playing WHM if I wanted to.

So, yes, WHM needed to be changed they needed buffs, but the doomsaying that "you can't even play WHM because groups won't take you and you are undesirable" can't be proven and my personal experience seems to be hinting at the opposite; that WHMs seemed to be still widely accepted even though they were lacking some. So unless we can find proof the majority refused to take WHMs then all that doomsaying means nothing.

I mean they nerfed AST balance card back to before 3.4 around launch of Omega Savage, did you see me in the healer forums making a post going "Welp AST is doomed, they are going to be shunned and kicked out of statics and blocked like they were back in 3.0" just because that is what happened to me? Nope, because I realize that my experience alone doesn't show with facts that such a thing will happen again or if it was that widespread and anyway I agree with balance card being nerfed in order to close the gap for healer balance.

Stop living in the past. It's gone. I am not saying SE won't make a mistake again possibly and unbalance the healers again, but if they do then come and voice your disapproval. For now like others have said the healers are as balanced as much as they could probably get since 100% balance is impossible to achieve with jobs that play differently and have separate toolkits.

So if you -still- don't like WHM then I suggest you move on to a new job because like I said before every time someone challenges your opinions on WHM your default argument against anything said is always "exclusion", but you have no proof of it beyond your personal experience. So find some other legs to stand on or I suggest you just stop posting all the paranoia doomsaying and negativity about WHM all the time. All that constant negativity eventually doesn't help your cause, but starts to hurt it.

As for statics, if you were in one at the time, there were tons of people that were pressured into going AST for the raid.

As for this specific quote I wanted to tackle this by itself.

I mean you openly admit you have no proof then you say this though...

How do you know tons of people were pressured into going AST? Who are these "tons" of people and how are you privy to their personal static information? I mean I have been in 5 different statics since launch and usually static arguments, drama, or dirty laundry etc were kept within the static and not aired out for the whole server to see. The idea that you somehow overheard or found out about "tons" of WHMs pressured into going AST across tons of statics seems well ridiculous to say the least.

I understand the idea that you personally can see PF groups and look at them to see if they are blocking out WHMs, but how are you privy to "tons" of internal static goings on where they had a main WHM and was trying to force them into playing AST?

I am sorry, but it seems to me you are simply making things up to make it sound like what you are claiming is true no matter how much I call you out for having zero proof of it.

You need to stop making these ridiculous claims unless you have some evidence to back it up.

[KateHarthing]

I think this is why I'm not a fan of Duty time when being a WHM because all I can do is throw a rock and yeah it helps but it never feels enough - and then I get shouted at for not doing enough DPS as WHM

[Ceasaria]

Just stop to put WHM as a victim (and stop the predictions too please which are false since last april).
We are not in 3.4.
We are in 4.1 and all 3 healers are well balanced together.
When I see some WHM performances in speedkill (ex: Elia Sand - O2S - 4.0), It demonstrate this job is really good no matter you go for progression or speedkill.
Furthermore, for Bahamut Ultimate, it will be picked for sure, maybe more than AST.

Now about the initial topic, maybe Divine Benison could see an improvement when we have 3 stacks of Lilies (10% shield for the group, 60 sec cd) ; which will be the new trait "Secret of Lily II", thats all,.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

. They'll need to do something unique next time they add a healing job.

It's sad that I have to say this, but I absolutely dread the thought of a new healer anytime soon.
They simply can't get it right with the ones they already have, what chance do they have with a new healer joining this mess?
I think one of the main problems is the healers can all do too much right now.
SCH can mitigate, and Regen, and burst heal, and do near WHM level DPS, and offer utility.

AST can do all of the above but more utility and less damage.

WHM is probably the only balanced healer in this regard. It heals heavily with strong GCD heals and not much else.
So what's left for the next healer? Regens? WHM has that. Mitigation? Two other healers have that. They really need to calm down with giving SCH and AST everything and calling it balanced by putting it in a CD

[Miste]

I think one of the main problems is the healers can all do too much right now.

They can do too much now because of people complaining constantly about healers not being able to do the exact same things the other healers do.

I mean look at this thread. It is your thread. What did you suggest in the OP?

To give WHM more things they can do.

So I find it kind of strange you would be the one to bring this up...I mean sure a weak aoe shield for WHM on a long cooldown isn't going to break the game or balance really, but you still asked for it and it is doing the same thing you just said was the main problem: giving healers, in this case WHM, more things they can do.

I mean the same thing happens with DPS jobs and I found it really funny when Yoshida and his team during a live letter basically said 'If you want what another job has go play the other job then' because people were in a huge uproar about SMN that they couldn't heal people like a RDM can because Physick is weak even though they finally gave them Bahamut too because SMN has been complaining about no cool or powerful looking summons for a long time.

I mean it seems to me the player base is doing this to themselves. They constantly covet things other jobs have on their preferred job that it starts to end up where every job has an answer to everything all other jobs can do as well and ends up having barely any diversity. I mean I play AST and WHM and sometimes on AST during difficult content I miss not having some of the tools WHM has like Assize, Thin Air, Cure III, or Benediction because they are powerfully useful sometimes, but I don't come to the forums and demand AST get the same things as WHM because of it.

It is the people who constantly complain about balance not being 100% that cause this to happen because like I said before 100% balance is impossible when all jobs play differently and have separate toolkits. So what can happen when people complain the jobs aren't balanced enough? SE adds more and more homogenization and gives the jobs answers to what other jobs have to close the gap.

The gap wasn't even really far to begin with in most cases and the jobs are still viably able to clear all content in the game, but just being viable and able to clear all content in the game isn't enough for some people and they will complain unless the job they personally like to play is always #1.

This isn't to say in some cases complaints are not justified because sometimes they definitely are because the gap is too large, but some people continue to complain even if the gap is pretty small. I mean SMN's complaining they can raise like RDM can but don't have Vercure....seems to me that is completely unnecessary.

[Stabby-Chan]

I think about in the form of design:

I love WHM, but the class is a pure healer that also has high DPS for a healer.
A raid design that intentionally forces mitigation or the party wipes means that WHM can not function fully in there.
In short, it is not the fault of WHM. It is a design flaw (unless the intention was to take WHM out of the picture for that map)...

Tanks are responsible for controlling the battlefield and using their heavy armor and skills to mitigate damage.
Remember, that the whole reason a tank exists is to withstand and redirect the damage meant for others to themselves....

Bring two WHM into a map, and a mitigation-check causes everyone to wipe.
That is on the map design, not the healer...since any healer by endgame who has mitigation will know how to use it and apply it well.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I mean look at this thread. It is your thread. What did you suggest in the OP?

To give WHM more things they can do.

So I find it kind of strange you would be the one to bring this up...

I know it sounds hypocritical, but I said what I said in regards to healers going forward.
Right now though, in this expansion specifically, I think it does need something extra to compete properly with the other healers in more than just the progression phase of a raid.

What I would TRULY like is for all healers to be stripped of their huge multipurpose design and focus on one main thing. SCH and mitigation/fairy usage. AST with raid utility. WHM with heavy heals.

But that's simply not going to happen so, we have to talk about how to balance them as they are now, and for right now, I feel some form of utility or small AOE mitigation on a CD is needed.

but just being viable and able to clear all content in the game isn't enough for some people and they will complain unless the job they personally like to play is always #1.

You're right on one part. Viability isn't enough for me. Viability is such a broad, wide sweeping word. It just means that it's not broken. That it can clear content, despite how it feels to play, how it is comparatively to other jobs, how fun a job is.
I really do hate the word at this point, it feels like it's a poor excuse to ignore issues with the job.

Why should a job stop at being viable? That's not what anyone should aim for or accept.

As for me wanting them to be #1, that's not true at all. I simply want jobs to be able to stand up comparatively to eachother.