Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Kabooa]

Grocery.

The more accurate example is that the milk and bread are placed in two separate bags (thus requiring more bags despite the job getting done)

The bagger / cashier's basic task is "process goods and bag them". If they're ruining the goods, then they aren't performing the bagging role.

[MoroMurasaki]

The more accurate example is that the milk and bread are placed in two separate bags (thus requiring more bags despite the job getting done)

The bagger / cashier's basic task is "process goods and bag them". If they're ruining the goods, then they aren't performing the bagging role.

I feel like if you're willing to argue optimal grocery store cashier behavior you're arguing for the sake of arguing. A cashier squashing your bread is them not being a great cashier even though they are technically still cashiering. A healer not DPSing is them not being a great healer even though they're technically still healing.

Both are inconvenient, annoying and happening for no good reason other than a lack of knowledge or experience. Both are also worthy of criticism but not abuse.

[era1Ne]

This thread is powered by a energizer battery.

The thread is powered by people jumping to different topics all the time. One is talking about the goal of an class in theory, others are talking about inexpierienced healers and then someone comes in with "but... but... the pure healers. They are not ok, right?" (which 97% of people agree with, including me). Add silly arguments to that and then you have an thread, which will never end.

The fact that Tridus had to bring up an all flash PLD to try to get this point across is completely insane.

This argument is bad, because we discussed what the main job of an class is and this ofc should be done correctly.

• So an tank who uses one button and does flash, is worse than an tank who does the aggro combo, because the second does dmg aswell, while generate aggro. There is no downside to it by game design.
• An healer who does no aoe or instant heals and only uses vita to heal a group up, maybe letting people die is worse than an healer using his kit efficiently and keeping everyone alive
• An dd not using aoe skills, when there are 10000000 mobs is worse, because with one button he does much, much less dmg then using the one gcd doing something efficiently and use aoe skills

TL;DR There is an clear difference between doing your main job and doing your main task very unefficiently

Yeah agree with you here, bosses you -might- not be able to only use Flash, but with some of the DPS you come across in DF doing very low potential....its safe to say you might even be able to do it on bosses sometimes as well and I think the main idea is that the potential is still there to do exactly 0 DPS on a PLD if you decided to and it is one of the sticking points about that "It's not my role so I shouldn't have to" argument :/

You can't compare classes like that, because they are different by game design. If you would create this thread in the tank forum, you wouldn't create an thread saying "dear tanks, who don't dps" (there is no downside to use aggro combo, compared to flash in boss fights), but an thread "dear tanks, who are in tank stance all the time". (Would love to see how this goes...) The latter has an downside, since you risk to be not able to do your main task at hand, while playing more efficiently, since tanking out of tank stance is an dmg gain. Healers are still, despite the removal of cleric stance in an similar situations and risk letting people die, depending on how much you are willing to risk/push it, in order to do dmg.

[Miste]

This argument is bad, because we discussed what the main job of an class is and this ofc should be done correctly.

Hmmm seems to me you are trying to change the usual definition of it to suit your point? Unless we have misunderstood what you are saying.

You said....

While asking an healer to dps, is more than is very basic role requires.

So to avoid double standards...we must add on that "asking a tank to dps is more than their very basic role requires" as well.

Which just in turn leads to the sticking point that a PLD only using Flash and mitigation is doing their role and you can't have any expectations for them to use anything that actually does damage because it would be a double standard because healers don't have to.

I mean I took it as you are saying that "you don't have to do things that are outside of your role and you cannot request others to do things outside of their role".

So you can pretty much only ask a DPS role to DPS, a healer to heal, and a tank to tank. I can just quote one of my older posts to mention it again.

It is the same thing because if a tank can hold hate with only flash then why do they need to use the aggro combo? The aggro combo may be part of the tanking kit, but if you can hold hate without it then it is objectively not required so why would you need to use it if a tank's job is only to tank? For dungeon trash pulls AoE Flash hate is technically more important than combos anyway especially if the DPS are using AoE damage.

A tank's job is to tank therefore it only requires holding hate and using mitigation; if holding hate can be accomplished by an easy one button press of Flash until I run out of MP then why do I need to waste energy doing combos? If DPS isn't a healer's job then DPS isn't a tank's job either so if I can keep hate while doing 0 DPS then why would I try harder and have to press more buttons just to do DPS? It's not a tank's job to do DPS so if I can ignore it and still do my tanking job then it is totally fine.

It's all about double standards which I already mentioned to you.

If someone makes the argument that a healer is only required to heal (which is the statement made by the poster I initially responded to on this subject) then by that logic a tank's job is only to tank therefore if you have an issue with how a tank plays doing 0 DPS and only using flash and mitigation that is pure hypocrisy.

If it is acceptable for a healer to do 0 DPS since DPS is not their job then automatically a tank doing 0 DPS must be acceptable as well since DPS isn't their job either. Only DPS jobs have to DPS.

[MoroMurasaki]

snip

You point out that there is no downside to a tank using their aggro combo rather than just using Flash which of course anyone with common sense would agree with... but that makes it sound like there is a downside to healer DPS?

I'm sorry if I'm not understanding you here but if you weren't trying to say there was a downside to healer DPS I don't understand what bringing up another 'downside' would be.

If that was what you were trying to say then I have to bite... What is the downside to healer DPS?

[Zojha]

It's crazy this is still going.

One of the latest threads on the topic reached over 170 pages. There's another at 77. Two other, earlier ones, at 44, with the first one being slightly derailed to the topic. And yet another at 38. I didn't even bother mentioning the smaller ones with less than 30 pages, else I could spam the entire page with links.
We could actually make a "Best of" compilation.

Insert a picture of a brutally mangled dead horse here. We'd be well over 500-600 pages if the thing kept to a single thread. And it's the same arguments over and over. Chances are, it's not going to end soon. The war of straw is waging on and double standards prove to be twice as durable as single standards.

Personally, I can't add anything that hasn't been said already to the debate anymore. So I'll just leave it at that >_>

[era1Ne]

Hmmm seems to me you are trying to change the usual definition of it to suit your point? Unless we have misunderstood what you are saying.

You said....

I did. But does this mean for example an healer should never use earthly star, since it does dmg? Nope, not at all. There would be no downside to use es as there is no downside to use your aggro combo. Using those kind of skills that do both, is a good thing and doesn't hinder your ability to do your main task and there is no risk using them at all. So why would you not use them, unless you want to do an silly argument in a forum.

So to avoid double standards...we must add on that "asking a tank to dps is more than their very basic role requires" as well.

Can we stop using silly examples aswell? If you really can't take the game design into account, then there is nothing to discuss anymore. let me re-phrase your sentence.... "asking a tank to tank out of tank stance for more dps, is more than their very basic role requires".

-> doing dmg as healer, outside of skills like earthly star
Downside= People can die, if you don't heal correctly -> risk

-> tanking out of tank stance
Downside= less aggro generation, less mitigation -> risk

Using earthly star or aggro combo -> no downside.

We can talk all day long about the theory, about definitions, but when it comes down to it, you have to consider how the game is designed and can't ignore it. So saying, "oh now healers only have to heal. Might aswell use ony vita then, right, RIGHT? or doing the same for flash, is just silly and adds nothing to the discussion. Use common sense, thx.

You point out that there is no downside to a tank using their aggro combo rather than just using Flash which of course anyone with common sense would agree with... but that makes it sound like there is a downside to healer DPS?

I'm sorry if I'm not understanding you here but if you weren't trying to say there was a downside to healer DPS I don't understand what bringing up another 'downside' would be.

If that was what you were trying to say then I have to bite... What is the downside to healer DPS?

Everyone who plays healer for a long time and tries to push himself to the limit, did make mistakes, which lead to either people or the whole group to die. Your goal is to heal everyhing with insant heals of both healers and trust your (/the other healer) reggen after all. Addionally you heal with the mindset, "people need only enough hp to survive" and not "people need to be full asap". Playing around with that, trying to push yourself has the downside, that mistakes will be costly and people will die. Now, of course this is the mindest experienced healers have and can't be used for newer healer. But still, the downside even if you play much more save, remains. If you are casting dmg skill and misjudge the dmg an tank buster for instance does, then the tanks and if not rezz asap the group will die.

[Miste]

You can't compare classes like that, because they are different by game design.

No, you can. See again you are bringing a secondary layer on to this instead of looking at the core of the issue.

At a basic level you can compare the jobs like this. Tanks and healers are different by game design with their abilities and roles, but at the basic level healers are healers and tanks are tanks. They both share the fact their main design isn't DPS even though they both can easily contribute some DPS, and that is why you can compare them at a basic level.

(there is no downside to use aggro combo, compared to flash in boss fights)

No downside, sure, but if my job as a tank is to tank and DPSing is asking me to do something outside my main role then technically I don't have to right? I can still fulfill my main job without using my aggro combo by way of unitizing Flash often. Refer to the quote in my other post for more explanation on this.

I mean there is also no downside to just tossing a few DPS spells on healer you do realize that right? You are defeating your own argument now.

You do realize we are not talking about healers who don't do "enough" DPS for our standard right? We are talking about healers who do NONE at all as in doing 0 (minus Assize and Earthy Star since they do damage as well as healing at the same time so it doesn't count). Meaning they used a total of 0 of their DPS spells the entire fight.

As a main healer I am telling you right now if you are going to go on the extreme (sigh ...I guess you did try it; just so you know it is a strawman) to claim that healers can never DPS safely by claiming "oh but there is a downside cause people might die"....you are just wrong on this. Very wrong. There is so much time in boss fights where no one is taking barely any damage so you can use Aero II or Aero III or toss a few Stone IV (just using WHM to avoid having to name every healer roles spells) all of that intermittent in the fight and be 100% safe.

Stuff just doesn't do enough damage in this game for you to claim "oh if I cast EVEN ONE Stone IV someone will die!" even though everyone's HP is full and the tank's HP is barely moving. So no there is no excuse for using NONE of your DPS spells, even if you are a little nervous if everyone is full HP and you don't use maybe just a few DoTs or a couple of Stones then you just aren't trying at that point.

The only exception to this would be if a healer is new to the content or is still like below level 50. I get it if people are new and less experienced, but we are talking about people with multiple level 60-70 who have been playing a lot trying to excuse not even using 1 darn DPS spell in a fight.

Healers are still, despite the removal of cleric stance in an similar situations and risk letting people die, depending on how much you are willing to risk/push it, in order to do dmg.

No.

-> doing dmg as healer, outside of skills like earthly star
Downside= People can die, if you don't heal correctly -> risk

No.

Strawman.

No one is saying to risk people dying to do some DPS.

You can safely use a few DPS spells from your DPS toolkit on healer for most dungeon boss fights.

At this point I can only surmise we aren't even talking about or playing the same game.

[Seoulstar]

snip

As I've always said. This will go on until even well after the FFXIV servers shut down. It's a never ending circle and if you dare ask why is this continuing. Chances are you'll just be met by a person who thinks they're being smart by accusing you of adding on to the argument and not letting the thread die. Despite the fact you're not the one who's trying to start an argument. Well at least that is what happened to me a few months ago.

[era1Ne]

As a main healer I am telling you right now if you are going to go on the extreme (sigh ...I guess you did try it; just so you know it is a strawman) to claim that healers can never DPS safely by claiming "oh but there is a downside cause people might die"....you are just wrong on this. Very wrong. There is so much time in boss fights where no one is taking barely any damage so you can use Aero II or Aero III or toss a few Stone IV (just using WHM to avoid having to name every healer roles spells) all of that intermittent in the fight and be 100% safe.

Now you are jumping to conclusion. I've never said that there is no time to dps. There is a lot of time, which i said over and over again.

Stuff just doesn't do enough damage in this game for you to claim "oh if I cast EVEN ONE Stone IV someone will die!" even though everyone's HP is full and the tank's HP is barely moving. So no there is no excuse for using NONE of your DPS spells, even if you are a little nervous if everyone is full HP and you don't use maybe just a few DoTs or a couple of Stones then you just aren't trying at that point.

Why are you getting so emotional over this?

The only exception to this would be if a healer is new to the content or is still like below level 50. I get it if people are new and less experienced, but we are talking about people with multiple level 60-70 who have been playing a lot trying to excuse not even using 1 darn DPS spell in a fight.

Maybe you are talking about them. Also the argument "look they got XY classes at 70, so they must be good". Is just bad. I am an decent monk and an good healer. But i am not an good mch or blm for example. I even got savage gear for those classes. Doesn't mean, i can play them.

You can safely use a few DPS spells from your DPS toolkit on healer for most dungeon boss fights.

At this point I can only surmise we aren't even talking about or playing the same game.

This is so funny at this point. I understand that you can do a lot of dmg as healers in the game and you should do dmg, despite the (small*) risk for it. But this doesn't take away the fact that a) there is a risk and b) that there are new healers out there, who are not comfortable doing (a lot of) dmg, because of the small* risk. I don't support pure healers or their mindset, but i do understand new healers and their reasons for not doing as much dps as i for example do. I play differently then them as some of you probably do aswell. Doesn't make their reasons less valid.

*The more dmg you want to push an an healer, the higher the risk gets.