Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Miste]

I honestly can't see how someone thinks a tank only using flash and no aggro combo is the same as a healer not dpsing.

It is the same thing because if a tank can hold hate with only flash then why do they need to use the aggro combo? The aggro combo may be part of the tanking kit, but if you can hold hate without it then it is objectively not required so why would you need to use it if a tank's job is only to tank? For dungeon trash pulls AoE Flash hate is technically more important than combos anyway especially if the DPS are using AoE damage.

I don't know how else to get you to understand this so I am going to be really over the top descriptive here.

A tank's job is to tank therefore it only requires holding hate and using mitigation; if holding hate can be accomplished by an easy one button press of Flash until I run out of MP then why do I need to waste energy doing combos? If DPS isn't a healer's job then DPS isn't a tank's job either so if I can keep hate while doing 0 DPS then why would I try harder and have to press more buttons just to do DPS? It's not a tank's job to do DPS so if I can ignore it and still do my tanking job then it is totally fine.

It's all about double standards which I already mentioned to you.

If someone makes the argument that a healer is only required to heal (which is the statement made by the poster I initially responded to on this subject) then by that logic a tank's job is only to tank therefore if you have an issue with how a tank plays doing 0 DPS and only using flash and mitigation that is pure hypocrisy.

If it is acceptable for a healer to do 0 DPS since DPS is not their job then automatically a tank doing 0 DPS must be acceptable as well since DPS isn't their job either. Only DPS jobs have to DPS. I realize PLD is the only tank that can actually do this while keeping hate in dungeons since Flash does 0 DPS, but it still means that if you believe that healers are okay to do 0 DPS then you cannot have an issue with a PLD doing 0 DPS either because like I said double standards and hypocrisy.

I don't know why you think this is a bad argument. It is literally a mirror image to a healer claiming they don't DPS because "a healer's job is only to heal so it is okay if I do 0 DPS". Instead it is a tank saying "a tank's job is only to tank so it is okay if I do 0 DPS." It is literally the exact same mirrored mentality.


I am sorry to be so blunt about all of this. I am not trying to be mean or rude to anyone who doesn't DPS on healer. I am just trying to explain objectively why this mentality is just wrong. It just doesn't work in this game due to how it is designed. Healers are not pure healers because the healing needed is just too low to need to dedicate all your GCDs to healing and you have plenty of opportunities to just DPS some. Doesn't matter if it is a lot, it is all about just putting a bit of effort into tossing some damage here and there. If the tank is bad, or under geared and therefore squishy then np, but in groups where there is a lot of downtime between healing then most players should have time to just throw a little bit of damage.

If a healer is literally not skilled enough to do DPS and will cause deaths or new to the fight then fine, but simply using "a healer's only job is to heal" as an excuse not to DPS on healer is just silly. This is highlighted by my silly tank parallel.

[Penthea]

If it is acceptable for a healer to do 0 DPS since DPS is not their job then automatically a tank doing 0 DPS must be acceptable as well since DPS isn't their job either. Only DPS jobs have to DPS. I realize PLD is the only tank that can actually do this while keeping hate in dungeons since Flash does 0 DPS, but it still means that if you believe that healers are okay to do 0 DPS then you cannot have an issue with a PLD doing 0 DPS either because like I said double standards and hypocrisy.

I feel this is a very poor comparison to make because dps does directly help tanks to maintain threat but dps doesn't directly help healers. Yes dps can indirectly help with healing because things die faster, but its relationship with healing isn't as close as it is with tanks. Healers doing dps doesn't make healing numbers pop up elsewhere, tanks doing dps actually adds to their threat generation. The responsibilities of tanks and healers are quite similar in some ways, but the way they perform their roles in this context is far too different for this comparison to make any real sense.

I mean you may as well start arguing that dps as bad as non-dpsing healers are the kind who only move out of telegraphs that render a dps loss either by killing them or debuffing them, and otherwise don't move at all because their role is to do damage, not mitigate it.

Why is it so hard for people to say "Tanks and dps don't stand around doing nothing while mobs are alive, so healers shouldn't either"? :P

Yea I get that many think some healers cannot grasp the above, well honestly I think they all eventually do but some choose to be lazy instead. Lazy players exist in every role, and a healer not dpsing is how it often happens among healers. Threads like this won't suddenly inspire these healers to do more. But kicking them for it would.

[Deceptus]

Why is it so hard for people to say "Tanks and dps don't stand around doing nothing while mobs are alive, so healers shouldn't either"? :P

Because people have been saying that this whole entire thread and still there are healers who refuse to accept it.

[Penthea]

Because people have been saying that this whole entire thread and still there are healers who refuse to accept it.

You know how you get people to see that their behaviour is unacceptable? Don't put up with it. Kick these players and say why you are, or leave and say why you're leaving. Does a thread like this affect these healers while they're in an instance? Hell no. I'm sure most don't know it exists. But what certainly would affect them is hindering their game by removing them or yourself.

[MoroMurasaki]

I feel this is a very poor comparison to make because dps does directly help tanks to maintain threat but dps doesn't directly help healers. Yes dps can indirectly help with healing because things die faster, but its relationship with healing isn't as close as it is with tanks. Healers doing dps doesn't make healing numbers pop up elsewhere, tanks doing dps actually adds to their threat generation. The responsibilities of tanks and healers are quite similar in some ways, but the way they perform their roles in this context is far too different for this comparison to make any real sense.

Would you argue that SCH and Noct AST only have to use their direct healing moves then? And WHM should never use Divine Bension. These shields are mitigation, same as healer DPS. I have a hard time separating the two but I do feel that if a DPSing healer and a lazy non-DPSing healer ran the same group through the same dungeon the overall incoming danage in the DPSing healer's group would be considerably less, especially on WHM where an amazing Stun just happens to be built into our AoE DPS.

So where is the line? Do we play to the best intetests of our party and mitigate through shields and DPS or let the damage roll in just because we have the potency to heal it anyways?

[Vyriah]

So where is the line? Do we play to the best intetests of our party and mitigate through shields and DPS or let the damage roll in just because we have the potency to heal it anyways?

Yeah right, use those SCH shields in dungeon, they're really so great and mana is for the lazy people anyway.
I'm not sure if can not make point harder than that.

Trying to be "moderate" and all is cool, but what you're doing is monitoring players and asking them to play how you want them to play because they would be lazy, wich is certainly that exact attitude SE want out of its game when they talk about healer not DPSing. And when its come to the point where you're saying "SCH should prevent damage instead of healing them because they can" while this is certainly the worst way of playing it possible currently, we're not talking about the game anymore. We're talking about you wanting to clear dungeon faster and that's your buisness, not every else's.

Actually, playing efficiently is something that you aim yourself, not something you do because some guy you don't know wants you to do it. If you don't want to play with those random guys that don't play like you want to, don't use the DF. There's FC, there's friendlist, there's PF. Get a party of like minded player and play with them. Or is suddenly "using everything available" not a matter anymore ?

[MoroMurasaki]

snipped for length

I enjoy how you only chose to address my closing statement instead of contesting my actual evidence - would my party take less damage with me DPSing or not? I mean we both know the answer you just don't have a rebuttal to that part. In terms of your "make a pf or play with your FC" dig - no. Not that I don't do those things but they are for when you are looking for something outside the norm/specific, if anything healers who don't want to DPS should do that. Maybe they can even offer something to the players who join in exchange for carrying them.

All this silly "you want to control how peple play" argument is also just garbage because you have no idea what I want. I want people to stop being lazy and use their whole kit! Stop giving the rest of us healers bad press because you are standing there doing nothing while your party does the heavy lifting. I want them to do this not because I say so but because they take their heads out of the sand for once and recognize that they are literally a liability in a party.

Playing tanks and DPS now is driving home a point that I have suspected for the past year; healers who don't DPS rarely heal well anyways. It's not a matter of them needing all that time to do an amazing job at their primary function because they tend to be fumbling even that. I had a WHM in Sirensong that I posted about in the "Tales from the Duty Finder" thread in the past few days who not only never applied DoTs but was also forcing the PLD and RDM to heal themselves/the party. These are the healers I see not DPSing. Maybe you are the one shining example of a healer who doesn't DPS but heals well, I don't know.

Also in terms of SCH maybe you know more than I do currently but I do know the MP cost on Adlo got jacked way up so why would you want to prolong a fight when you could run into MP issues when you or the tank run out of cooldowns? That "heal forever" mentality might be okay on WHM but I don't think SCH is in the same place. By using your (comparatively cheaper) DPS abilities how many heal casts are you saving? Or did you just want to Physic for 25 minutes straight through a dungeon?

This has nothing to do with wanting a faster clear on my part. I am annoyed with lazy healers that just stand around because I personally love healing and don't want to have other players seeing us in a negative light. Most people do want a comparatively faster dungeon as well and if I can help give them that then awesome.

At this point the side of the debate that is for healer DPS has presented a ton of reasons why it should be expected but I challenge you guys to come up with something now. None of this stupid "you dont pay my sub" crap - real reasons.

I'll wait.

[Vyriah]

Oh? And what did I do to get this ireful response from you?

That was just joke, sorry.

[Miste]

That was just joke, sorry.

Your jokes aren't funny and honestly if you cannot be civil and respectful by not resorting to swearing, thinly veiled insults, and calling people stupid etc in your posts it would be preferable if you see yourself out.

If you don't want to play with those random guys that don't play like you want to, don't use the DF. There's FC, there's friendlist, there's PF. Get a party of like minded player and play with them.

By the way you cannot use ^this argument because it is hypocritical. If you as a healer do not want to end up with random players who may request you to DPS then you don't need to use DF. You can use FC, friendlist and PF as well.

In DF you have to compromise sometimes but you are basically saying "some people have to compromise", but "healers are exempt from having to compromise". It isn't really equal and fair treatment.

[Penthea]

Would you argue that SCH and Noct AST only have to use their direct healing moves then?

At this point I would argue that a great deal of us are no longer debating the subject that this thread was intended to be about.