Dear Healers who don't DPS

[Taika]

You can try as hard as you can but it looks like DPS is the keyword here, and no matter what, be it because you're lazy or just new and unsure of your skill, you will automatically be labeled as non efficient and be encouraged, if not forced, to play by their rules.

Miste already replied properly to you, but I still want to say this: at this point you're intentionally (1) ignoring pretty much everything everyone in this thread has written so far, and (2) spreading what you know to be nonsense. There's really no point trying to discuss anything with you, although I appreciate the effort made by the few, since it may benefit others who are reading this thread.

[EllieShadeflare]

Honestly, the only truly "bad" way to play healer is if your tank dies and it's not because of something they did. Inefficiency is something that can be argued, to be honest.

Because of how oriented around DPS checks FFXIV is from level 1-70 (with Omega Savage so far being a slight aversion to the trend, due to it relying more on mechanics for survival instead of pure DPS (though you still need to kill the boss before they enrage)), damage is often a high priority, even from classes that if put into other MMOs (including WoW or ESO) that wouldn't.

Even the devs seem somewhat aware of this, as the Conjurer questline (and by extension, its skillset) emphasizes a "if you ONLY heal, you're not going to your potential" message alongside the hint in the Hall of the Novice that healers should do SOME DPS during downtime and if they're comfortable.

I bolded "if they're comfortable" because not everyone will be able to juggle DPS and healing on their first try, but at the very least the removal of Cleric Stance as a gatekeeper in this prospect only helps make it easier.

[Keridwyn]

You can try as hard as you can but it looks like DPS is the keyword here, and no matter what, be it because you're lazy or just new and unsure of your skill, you will automatically be labeled as non efficient and be encouraged, if not forced, to play by their rules.

That's because there are those of us who struggle with limitations (either physical, mental, or hardware imposed) that have been here telling you it's okay to DPS.

If you are not dpsing because you're lazy you are the definition of 'non efficient'. If you can do it just fine but you're not because you'd rather just do some minimum effort/maximum reward...I don't want you in my group. That attitude is what turns people into living nightmares for the rest of us and quite frankly I'm to the point where I just don't do dungeons unless I've got one or more friends with me.

If you are not dpsing because you're new, please please please let folks know. Tell us that you've just changed to the class, just started playing, or picked the game back up after ages away. While there are a lot of angry people lately very very few of them are going to fault you and who knows, maybe you'll run into someone who plays your class often and has some pointers to help you settle in and feel more comfortable! Be willing and open to learn new things since the game itself really doesn't teach you how to play.

If you are not dpsing because you're unsure of your skill, hi, nice to meet someone who struggles with the same issue that plagues me daily. As someone with some pretty severe hardware issues (the PC is fine the connection and ping are not!) I have to compensate with personal skill and I don't always know that I'm up to the task. It can be nerve wracking and it's a large reason of why I just go with friends. However, I try to push myself. I try to figure out what I can do safely, what I can do in a pinch. I'm never going to raid Savage or Ultimate and I'm not comfortable when a tank just pulls wall to wall, but I know in a pinch that I can keep my tank alive and still help bring down that group of mobs. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the healer any true 'elitist' wants to get in their group but for the average player they should have minimal complaint. You lived, the mobs died, and I contributed every step of the way.

I will keep saying the same thing I always do. DPS is best used responsibly. If your tank has less health than the dps, the dps have a weird problem with catching on fire, and your co-healer is busy affixing their pants firmly to their head then it's okay to NOT dps.

[Levian]

Well, he was using CDs. Being in the 40s makes him want to stack them or use stuff like Living Dead (not that he could use that in Haukke Manor), which was the point. There was plenty of time to DPS here and there wasn't any issue in terms of results. Just that he feels a lot more comfortable as a tank being topped up and would rather that over a DPSing healer, which is a perspective I found pretty interesting as it comes from well outside the circle of folks talking here.

More than 1 way to skin a cat. And there's a large difference between playing with familiar faces and people you've never interacted with before. When I tank, I'm always leery around unfamiliar healers. Regardless of the game in question, what a tank can do is leashed by how the healer plays. I know if my health isn't moving, I'm not pulling enough and need to step it up. If it's hovering at %50 without dipping much lower I'm generally in my happy place and will continue to move at that pace. If it's constantly lower then it's time to re-evaluate things and effect a change.

[gti443]

It was interesting that we were on different ends of that, since I thought the healer in question did an outstanding job and they got my commendation.

For as many pages as people can fill on the subject I definitely feel a lot of pushback in game.

[miraidensetsu]

This maybe be true for some of them, more so in other games, but in FF14, you get easily help.

Agreed. And, luckily, there are few elitists in FF14 if compared to other games.

And for me you described nice elite players. Not elitists.

Elite is just a player with a remarkable playerskill. Elitist are the specific players who think themselves as elite and thinks that this fact grants them the right to do whatever. Think on mentors: they're (mostly) elite players. But there are a group of few mentors that is toxic towards the sprouts and make sure to be unhelpful. These few specific mentors are the elitists I'm saying.

I think we can all agree that people should at least try their best and try to do more than there basic task of their respective role. But pushing buttons alone can't be used as an metric..

Where do I sign?

[era1Ne]

Why does he need to correct his mistakes? It is only DF right? Asking someone to "play better" in it is by your own definition elitist.

Also you said before that you should not belittle someone from a feeling of superiority. Saying someone was "carried" is belittling them and acting superior over them. I personally try to avoid that term as much as possible because it is so negative.

Tank using Sword Oath in DF. You ask him to use Shield Oath first then switch because it is the "better way to play."

Healer not DPSing in DF. We ask them to DPS some because it is the "better way to play."

There is no difference here striped down to basics.

Everyone here as different opinions and while i don't agree with everything he says, i have to support him here. Do you really not see the difference? It is simple really. The tank in his example was a burden for the group and refused to do his main task, which is keeping aggro. While asking an healer to dps, is more than is very basic role requires. In other words, an healer in normal content, who is keeping the group alive is less of an burden than someone who refuse to do his main job and lets dd die, because he wants to see the "DEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSS!!!!".

I had two tanks like that a few days ago and they refused to go into tank stance, but did the mechanics wrong (ot has to be second in aggro) and the mt lost multiple times the aggro and killed dd sometimes with it, cause they got the tank buster instead of the tanks. We told them nicely, but at the end both refused to do their main job and selfish as they were, rather risked wipes over and over again, instead of doing their basic job. This is a team game and you should work together as an team, instead of doing an one man show. So yes, if someone doesn't do his main job, for example not holding aggro, refuse to heal or refuse to attack the add, then he is worse than someone playing not to their full potential or trying the best. Doing mistakes once or twice, is fine, because if you push yourself mistakes will happen, but there comes a point, where you got to adjust and think about the group, instead of your own goals.

Now, of course, i prefer tanks to be out of tank stance and push their dps, but if you can't do your main task, while doing it, go in tank stance. Same for tank busters. If you are out of tank stance and get one shot, then don't scream for shields, because tanks should use their cd to survive the tank buster. Do your main task and then think about ways to improve your dps. Simple really. Work together, communicate and get better. In very, very, very good groups there are no main-/offtank or (main-/offheal for that matter). You plan out heals and cd as the encounter demands and switch between the tanks to make use of the full toolkit to the best of your ability.

TL;DR:
What you ask healers to do, is more than their main task. What he asked the tank in the example to do, is his main task. Huge difference right there and everyone should have the right to expect at least, people doing their main task. For tanks and healers dmg comes after their main task by game design. For example an DD or healer can't survive an tb and healers are the only classes with that much healing. So if an healer refuse to heal at all or an tank refuse to hold aggro, then it is most likely a wipe. In other words, asking people to do their job in order to prevent wipes is asking the bare minimum. While asking tanks to tank out of tank stance, healers to dps and so on, because this is efficient, is more than their role in normal content demands to succeed.

Miste already replied properly to you, but I still want to say this: at this point you're intentionally (1) ignoring pretty much everything everyone in this thread has written so far, and (2) spreading what you know to be nonsense. There's really no point trying to discuss anything with you, although I appreciate the effort made by the few, since it may benefit others who are reading this thread.

This thread is so long, because a few people of both "sides" are ignoring points intentionally and thats why this thread and the discussion between you and him will go on forever.

That's kind of an extreme example if you ask me. I'd be very sympathetic to a healer choosing not to DPS on some of the trash pulls we see now, whereas I wouldn't be quite so enamoured with a healer that chose not to do any DPS whatsoever on some of the bosses in the current Expert rotation (Many of which I'll do without casting a single cure). To clarify here, I'm not expecting sprouts to go gungho, decent regen and dot uptimes are enough to get a thumbs up from me for the most part.

Healers with confidence issues are all too common indeed though (My co healer for much of FCOB was a classic case of this) and in most cases I've seen, they've simply been their own worst enemy. Simply opening up and communicating a little helps so much in these situations, yet so few are willing to give it a go.

I think we are on the same page here, because i usually demand the same of healers (or other classes for that matter) in normal content and it really suprised me in the past how big of an issue confidence can be, especially for tanks and healers. I also agree that they are their own worst enemy, since there is enough time to do dps as healer.

[Tridus]

29 hours without a reply, and it was starting to look like it'd finally died. C'est la vie.

Everyone here as different opinions and while i don't agree with everything he says, i have to support him here. Do you really not see the difference? It is simple really. The tank in his example was a burden for the group and refused to do his main task, which is keeping aggro. While asking an healer to dps, is more than is very basic role requires. In other words, an healer in normal content, who is keeping the group alive is less of an burden than someone who refuse to do his main job and lets dd die, because he wants to see the "DEEEEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPPPPPPPSSSSS!!!!".

So you're okay with a tank that hits Flash 6 times then sits around doing nothing, provided they do it in Shield Oath? Stuff's hitting them, so they're meeting the basic requirements.

I had two tanks like that a few days ago and they refused to go into tank stance, but did the mechanics wrong (ot has to be second in aggro) and the mt lost multiple times the aggro and killed dd sometimes with it, cause they got the tank buster instead of the tanks. We told them nicely, but at the end both refused to do their main job and selfish as they were, rather risked wipes over and over again, instead of doing their basic job.

I don't see how that's relevant, since every job is capable of doing mechanics incorrectly and causing wipes because of it. That's a base requirement of the role.

It's not particularly related to standing around doing nothing when you could be doing something useful.

This is a team game and you should work together as an team, instead of doing an one man show. So yes, if someone doesn't do his main job, for example not holding aggro, refuse to heal or refuse to attack the add, then he is worse than someone playing not to their full potential or trying the best. Doing mistakes once or twice, is fine, because if you push yourself mistakes will happen, but there comes a point, where you got to adjust and think about the group, instead of your own goals.

It's a team game. Shouldn't you use abilities to help the team when you can instead of waiting for stuff to happen while everyone else is working to clear the encounter? Most teams really hate that guy who only contributes the absolute minimum he can get away with while the boss is looking and is otherwise napping.

[Miste]

Do you really not see the difference? It is simple really.

Do you really not see that I clarified why there is no difference? It is simple really. I can show you why your whole response to me has nothing to do with my post.

There is no difference here striped down to basics.

At its core the idea of requesting someone to play better... is still requesting someone to play better whether or not it is mechanics, job based, role based, or objectively better play in general, and no matter what extra layer you try to bring into it (IE: "Oh it's not part of their role so there is a difference") it doesn't remove the fact that the core idea of the request is exactly the same; so telling someone else they cannot make requests of others to "play better" is hypocrisy at its core when you also actively request players to "play better" as well.

All you are doing with your post is adding a secondary opinion based layer on top of the core fact I was talking about, and that is the opinions on whether or not healers and tanks should not have to do DPS because it's not their main role. Objectively how the game is designed doing close to zero DPS on healer and tank is extremely sub-optimal and that is a fact, but as for the argument "it's not part of their role so they don't have to" all of that is opinions.

For example, in my opinion since healer and tank roles HAVE dps spells and abilities I feel it IS part of their role despite the fact that they are listed as a healer or tank job. Obviously some people feel differently. I am not going to into it again why "it's not part of my role" ends up as a flawed argument though since myself and many other people have already pointed out the problem with it over and over and over; if you care then go back through the thread and read it. (Tridus mentioned one of the reasons for it again for you if you like)

The core still exists though and the core is what I was pointing out. So the extra layer you are trying to add on top of it is irrelevant to what I was saying.

Even if someone doesn't understand the game and makes an illogical request that lacks the correct knowledge behind it their intentions are the same. They are requesting in order to get you to do something they "think" is better, otherwise why would they ask in the first place? Moogly did the same thing with that tank. His advice was based on fact of game design and I agree that a tank should initiate with Shield Oath first, but at the core of it they are still requesting someone else to do something they feel they should be doing in order to get them to "play better."

Someone makes a request of the tank to use Shield Oath first then switch to Sword Oath in order to avoid losing aggro -and- someone else also makes a request that the healer DPS when there is no healing needed:
The tank listens and is therefore holding proper hate while contributing DPS as well when they weren't doing it before = they are factually and objectively playing better
The healer listens and is therefore healing as well as contributing DPSing when they weren't doing it before = they are factually and objectively playing better
*see how the result is exactly the same with these two scenarios? It is because the core of the request was the same.

At the core requesting someone to play better and then telling others they cannot request others to play better is hypocrisy. This is the fact about it.
Adding a second layer on top of the core where the request is either "okay" or "not okay" based on role is not what my post was talking about because a request being "okay" or "not okay" is all dictated by personal opinions.

Let us also recall said person I replied to likes to throw the word elitist around then comes and claims they "carried" someone. Sorry, but claiming you "carried" someone means you are basically saying "the only reason you succeeded is because I am so good that I did all the work for you as well as all my work too". It is the definition of elitism and like I said the word itself in the context of this game is extremely negative towards the person they are talking about.

I mean if you want to sum it up their behavior is basically someone exclaiming "don't be mean to people!" and in the same moment after screaming that they start bullying someone. If someone is that hypocritical then it becomes pointless to even listen to their argument or take them seriously anymore. They've shown multiple times that what they tell others to do they don't do either. If you want to defend them then okay go for it, but I will not allow them to get away with it.

Whether or not you agree with requesting healers to DPS it is still a valid request for the people who want healers to contribute and you cannot label it elitist just because you don't agree with it. Either everyone is allowed to make requests or no one is. Can't have double standards. If I am not allowed to simply politely request a healer to change their play style without being elitist, then you cannot politely request a tank to change their play style without being elitist either because the core of it is the same. The layers you try to add on top doesn't change the core.



TL;DR: You completely missed my point. At the core if you request someone else to do something you feel they should be doing, whether it is based on a logical argument or completely illogical, no matter what that request happens to be you are still requesting them to change their play style to something that either is factually "better" or something you personally think is "better", therefore, you cannot actively participate in making such requests while also telling other people "lol no you aren't allowed to make requests that I personally don't agree with otherwise you are elitist, but I can make any requests I want even if the core of my request is the exact same as yours and I'm not elitist". You bet your butt I will point out how hypocritical that is.

Now, of course, i prefer tanks to be out of tank stance and push their dps, but if you can't do your main task, while doing it, go in tank stance. Same for tank busters. If you are out of tank stance and get one shot, then don't scream for shields, because tanks should use their cd to survive the tank buster. Do your main task and then think about ways to improve your dps. Simple really. Work together, communicate and get better.

Let me just....reword this....

Now, of course, I prefer healers to try DPS when they can to push better damage, but if you can't do your main task while doing it, then just heal until DPS is possible. Same for heavy healing situations. If you are DPSing too much and miscalculated and someone dies, then don't scream at the tank to use more cooldowns or blame anyone else, because healers should use their cooldowns and heal when needed to make sure everyone survives. Do your main task and then think about ways to contribute some healer DPS to improve your contribution to the group. Simple really. Work together, communicate, and get better.

Oh wow, look at that, we actually have the same opinion. Small world eh?

[era1Ne]

So you're okay with a tank that hits Flash 6 times then sits around doing nothing, provided they do it in Shield Oath? Stuff's hitting them, so they're meeting the basic requirements.

I never said this would be ok. But hey, read what you want.