DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Valdegarde]

Convalescence increases the shielding from Nocturnal Aspected Benefic or Adloquium, which takes priority over the Blackest Night shield.
This is one of my highest concerns about Dark Knight overall, the interaction with healers. Besides shields blocking Blackest Night, there is whole blood price vs. holy dynamic (albeit much more toned down from Heavensward...but only because blood price got worse!), and healers straining to use every last cooldown and GCD to keep you afloat once you use Living Dead...and it never turn into Walking Dead, so when Living Dead wears off you die for real right after because the healers ran out of steam.

There's other examples of course, but while the other tanks and healers work well together, Dark Knight feels like many of their mechanics actively conflict with healers doing their jobs.
Edit: the rest is still appropriate

[SyzzleSpark]

priority over the Blackest Night shield.

I'm pretty sure this tidbit actually isn't true, TBN takes priority. I've never had it not pop on a TB no matter how many shields I had, and while it might hold true for AAs if it goes in order of cast, shield healers rarely waste time shielding you for fluff damage, nor should they.

[Valdegarde]

Oh! My experiences differ, but that could be errors in perception. I'll test it out for myself and see, but I trust your knowledge on the issue.

Edit: Yep, absolutely at least with Adloquium, Blackest Night takes priority. I feel like this either wasn't always the case or acts differently with other skills since I remember other situations in early Stormblood, but it's good news. Sometimes it's good to be wrong!

[TouchandFeel]

I decided to make an update pass on my previously suggested changes.
Major updates are highlighted in red.

1A) Problem: DRK is lacking in lower-end mitigation to be used for basic incoming damage such as auto-attacks when compared to the other tanks.
1B) Solution: Add an additional effect to Blood Price where the % of damage returned as HP from Soul Eater is increased. Also Blood Price MP and Blood return could use a boost.
2B) See suggestion 3B.

2A) Problem: Shadow Wall is discernibly worse than it's equivalents on the other tanks, Vengeance and Sentinel.
2B) Solution: Reduce Shadow Wall's CD from 180 seconds to 120 seconds.

3A) Problem: Dark Passenger no longer seems to be useful due to low damage and a steep resource (MP) cost.
3B) Solution: Increase recast time to 60s. Remove base MP cost. Remove Blind effect from DA version. Add the additional effect of reducing target's damage dealt by X% (5%?) for the DAed version for 15s.

4A) Problem: Carve & Spit needs to provide more of a decision to DA or not since the non-DA version lacks value compared to the DA version.
4B) Solution: Increase non-DAed version's potency to 140 and increase it's MP return to equal the cost of a DA.

5A) Problem: The Blackest Night's duration feels a bit short, especially with a slight delay in activation (hope I'm not the only one that notices this).
5B) Solution: Increase duration from 5 seconds to 6 seconds, same duration as Inner Beast.

6A) Problem: Sole Survivor has little to no use in boss fights.
6B) Solution: Reduce recast to 90s. Additional effect of placing the buff Soul Tap on the player, doubles the MP returned from Syphon Strike for a duration of 15s.

7A) Problem: Living Dead is a way more cumbersome ability compared to it's equivalents on the other tanks, Hallowed Ground and Holmgang.
7B) Solution: First off it NEEDS better visual messaging for the activation of the Walking Dead status so that healers can easily see when this goes active and they need to react, this should at least include a much larger/noticeable visual fx on the DRK. Make self-healing count towards the needed incoming heals with maybe a buff to self-heals. Change the potential of dying if not healed to receiving a weakness/brink of death debuff for X seconds (30 seconds?).

8A) Problem: As of 4.05 Bloodspiller is not enough of a gain when used.
8B) Solution: Additional effect of reducing Delerium CD by X seconds (20s?) when used without DA. Decrease potency of non-DAed Bloodspiller by 20 to 380, 455 in Grit. Increase potency of DAed Bloodspiller by 20 to 560, 670 in Grit.

9A) Problem: Dark Mind is too reliant on the content being designed to cater to the ability.
9B) Solution: Change Dark Mind to Shadow Skin. Use the Shadow Skin icon and animation/fx from 3.X. Recast 60s. Reduces damage taken by 10%. DAed version reduces damage by 20%. Duration 15s.

10A) Problem: Delerium feels a bit underwhelming for a high level ability that costs half your gauge.
10B) Solution: Add the additional effects of providing a 1200 potency heal on use when in Grit and increase the MP gained on use by 50% (3600mp) out of Grit. Also just change the name to something that fits better like "Blood Frenzy".

[Xenosan]

Whats your Grit and non-Grit openers look like? When's your x-pot being used?

Every time I try to improve mine I think it just ends up worse I think. (Sitting on oGCDs too long, overcapped MP on Del, or something else goes wrong)

[SyzzleSpark]

Some thoughts on these:

1A) Problem: DRK is lacking in lower-end mitigation to be used for basic incoming damage such as auto-attacks when compared to the other tanks.
1B) Solution: Add an additional effect to Blood Price where the % of damage returned as HP from Soul Eater is increased. Also Blood Price MP and Blood return could use a boost.
2B) See suggestion 3B.

I believe Souleater's HP gain return should be doubled or at least set at 150% of the damage dealt, as a baseline. When you look at things like PLD's ability to block, Clemency, WAR's passive Defiance Parry boost and Equilibrium/IB, its pretty clear that these are intended to be bonuses at the expense of DPS, while tanking, or while in tank stance. If Souleater's heal is the equivalent to these aspects of those jobs, its incredibly weak, and provides poor defensive incentive to use Grit beyond the baselines -20% DR. While I used to think attaching a % DR to Blood Price or an idea such as yours would be good for the job, I don't think its what it needs at this point. Souleater just needs its healing buffed altogether. The fact that the healing component is tied to an attack that doesn't even ignore the Grit penalty, in spite of being tied to Grit, is really stupid as well.

2A) Problem: Shadow Wall is discernibly worse than it's equivalents on the other tanks, Vengeance and Sentinel.
2B) Solution: Reduce Shadow Wall's CD from 180 seconds to 120 seconds.

This is good for the job and a good idea, but I don't even think we should stop there. Shadow Wall would still be kinda meh even at 120s and still be 100% inferior to Vengeance. I think a good solution to this would be to have DA shorten its recast time by 1-2s per cast.

3A) Problem: Dark Passenger no longer seems to be useful due to low damage and a steep resource (MP) cost.
3B) Solution: Increase recast time to 60s. Remove base MP cost. Remove Blind effect from DA version. Add the additional effect of reducing target's damage dealt by X% (5%?) for the DAed version for 15s.

I would rather its MP cost stay, but simply be lowered. They already did this ability right once (in 3.x) they should simply put it back where it was. Simplest solution is often the best.

4A) Problem: Carve & Spit needs to provide more of a decision to DA or not since the non-DA version lacks value compared to the DA version.
4B) Solution: Increase non-DAed version's potency to 140 and increase it's MP return to equal the cost of a DA.

I actually don't think this is a problem at all. DA effects should rightfully be superior in a majority of cases to their non-DA'ed versions. Carve and Spit is a goalpost mechanic. It comes up once per minute to ensure that you are managing your mana properly, and if you aren't, you suffer a considerable DPS loss by either delaying its use or using the un-DA'ed version. Buffing the non-DA'ed version raises the skill floor, which is already stupidly high on this job, and makes getting off a DA-C&S less rewarding/less of a gain, which is the precise same problem as you have outlined with Bloodspiller in #8.

5A) Problem: The Blackest Night's duration feels a bit short, especially with a slight delay in activation (hope I'm not the only one that notices this).
5B) Solution: Increase duration from 5 seconds to 6 seconds, same duration as Inner Beast.

I was a pretty brutalized victim of the DC relocation, and I frequently am saddled with 150-200 ping, and yet I rarely have the delay issue with TBN even when using it with a macro. However, the duration increase I have no argument with, it can and should happen.

6A) Problem: Sole Survivor has little to no use in boss fights.
6B) Solution: Reduce recast to 90s. Additional effect of placing the buff Soul Tap on the player, doubles the MP returned from Syphon Strike for a duration of 15s.

I find buffs that give DRK more mana a bit extraneous, because the job is already drowning in it since SB; overflow is a very real danger and preventing it is a proper mechanic of the job. I think a very simple way to give this ability value would be to have it restore 20% of your HP immediately, and give you the mana if the mob dies. This way it has value regardless of the situation.

7A) Problem: Living Dead is a way more cumbersome ability compared to it's equivalents on the other tanks, Hallowed Ground and Holmgang.
7B) Solution: First off it NEEDS better visual messaging for the activation of the Walking Dead status so that healers can easily see when this goes active and they need to react, this should at least include a much larger/noticeable visual fx on the DRK. Make self-healing count towards the needed incoming heals with maybe a buff to self-heals. Change the potential of dying if not healed to receiving a weakness/brink of death debuff for X seconds (30 seconds?).

Self healing already counts towards cleansing Walking Dead actually, its just that ours is so paltry and healers so readily burst it off of you when they notice it that you barely see any effect. Honestly this ability should just be scrapped altogether and made into something else, its annoying as hell. I used to think this ability was great, because I had a static, then I took a break from the game and I've been living the pug life ever since, and even when I sub for organized groups, its as though healers don't even know this ability exists, its insane. I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums that 90% of the buffs that people suggest to LD actually make it worse in some ways. This is no exception, as I guarantee you this idea will just give healers an excuse to ignore it further if they don't care about your DPS.

8A) Problem: As of 4.05 Bloodspiller is not enough of a gain when used.
8B) Solution: Additional effect of reducing Delerium CD by X seconds (20s?) when used without DA. Decrease potency of non-DAed Bloodspiller by 20 to 380, 455 in Grit. Increase potency of DAed Bloodspiller by 20 to 560, 670 in Grit.

Natural Bloodspillers are a significant potency gain. Its only when the blood to use them is proc'ed with TBN that the situation becomes dubious. I think the simplest solution here, and one that has been suggested many times, is to have TBN, if it pops, proc a free DA effect on your next Blood ability.

9A) Problem: Dark Mind is too reliant on the content being designed to cater to the ability.
9B) Solution: Change Dark Mind to Shadow Skin. Use the Shadow Skin icon and animation/fx from 3.X. Recast 60s. Reduces damage taken by 10%. DAed version reduces damage by 20%. Duration 15s.

Perfect, no argument here. I don't even think it would be OP at 20s duration.

10A) Problem: Delerium feels a bit underwhelming for a high level ability that costs half your gauge.
10B) Solution: Add the additional effects of providing a 1200 potency heal on use when in Grit and increase the MP gained on use by 50% (3600mp) out of Grit. Also just change the name to something that fits better like "Blood Frenzy".

Between the MP and the increased duration on BP/BW, Delirium is actually the best use of your blood gauge at all times. In fact, using it in Grit on BP even is a gain over using Bloodspiller, the only reason this is looked down upon is that you then cannot use it on BW for 2 minutes, which is of course bad. Again I think a recast reduction mechanic tied to DA would work well here, such as reducing its recast by 2-5s per DA, or perhaps extend the BW/BP buff to 10/20s respectively from 8/16s.

[TouchandFeel]

You make some good points that I would like to address since I didn't give my reasoning or deeper thoughts on my changes in my previous post due to length.
I've include my thoughts below in blue.

Some thoughts on these:

I believe Souleater's HP gain return should be doubled or at least set at 150% of the damage dealt, as a baseline. When you look at things like PLD's ability to block, Clemency, WAR's passive Defiance Parry boost and Equilibrium/IB, its pretty clear that these are intended to be bonuses at the expense of DPS, while tanking, or while in tank stance. If Souleater's heal is the equivalent to these aspects of those jobs, its incredibly weak, and provides poor defensive incentive to use Grit beyond the baselines -20% DR. While I used to think attaching a % DR to Blood Price or an idea such as yours would be good for the job, I don't think its what it needs at this point. Souleater just needs its healing buffed altogether. The fact that the healing component is tied to an attack that doesn't even ignore the Grit penalty, in spite of being tied to Grit, is really stupid as well.

I agree that the base hp return on Soul Eater is pretty low and I could see it being raised a little bit.
The proposed increase to Soul Eater hp return while under the effect of Blood Price was more to give Blood Price something so that it doesn't feel so lackluster, especially compared to Blood Weapon which actually feels decent. I opted for the increased hp return because it plays off the other main Grit locked aspect of DRK while still providing something that helps buffer fluff damage since the only reason you would be in Grit outside your opener is if you need or want that little extra tankiness. Also, it would only really take effect in non-AoE situations since I feel that with Quietus and DA+AD, DRK's AoE sustain is good as is.

The other main, and probably more direct, additions to DRK's defensive abilities were actually proposed in other abilities, with the Equilibrium equivalent being rolled in to Delerium and boosting the defensive aspects of Dark Passenger to actually be useful.

This is good for the job and a good idea, but I don't even think we should stop there. Shadow Wall would still be kinda meh even at 120s and still be 100% inferior to Vengeance. I think a good solution to this would be to have DA shorten its recast time by 1-2s per cast.

That is completely true that my proposed changes to Shadow Wall still leaves it inferior to Vengeance and I would be fine with it also having it's duration increased to match, however I kind of want to avoid making it too much like Vengeance. I am fine with this one ability being worse as long as other abilities are provided to make up for the deficiency which is the direction that I am trying to go.


I would rather its MP cost stay, but simply be lowered. They already did this ability right once (in 3.x) they should simply put it back where it was. Simplest solution is often the best.

The reason I proposed the changes that I did are twofold. First I wanted to provide a slight dps boost to DRK overall and I felt that since this ability is already on a cooldown it could have it's resource cost removed to make it just a simple straight dps gain when available. Second, and the main crux of the changes, is that I wanted to make this into a defensive in disguise. I thought on the blind effect and how that would be cool if it actually worked in more content, so then I thought that conceptually some sort of "weakness" effect that worked everywhere would work which eventually led me to settling on just a simple % damage down debuff. I went with approximately 5% because that is around what blind provides in trash packs so it was the same there and it seemed balanced for being on such a low recast while providing a debuff that acted as light raid utility. 10% on that low of a recast seemed way too powerful. I kept the effect under DA so that it has some form of gate to it while not actually resulting in a dps loss if used since the potency boost is the same as other DAed abilities, making it essentially free from the angle of it being a defensive ability. I then increased the recast to 60s in order to help balance out the fact that it is free dps and to make it line up with the recast times of other defensives that I could see it being stacked with such as Dark Mind and Reprisal.

As for just returning Dark Passenger to the 3.X version, I don't feel that it will do much for the ability with the way things are now. It's strengths in 3.X were that it was either a slight dps gain of 20 potency versus a DA for single target, or a sizeable dps boost in AoE situations; and that the blind synergized somewhat with the evasion boost from DA+DD. My proposed changes actually cover the first strength and even improve on it, making it a potential 100 potency boost every minute over a 40 potency boost for single target. As for the second strength, since Dark Dance was removed the effectiveness of blind went with it, resulting in the 3.X version of DP being worse in 4.X because it is lacks anything to synergize with to make it shine. Without that, it just ends up being another AoE-centric dps ability which DRK has plenty of.


I actually don't think this is a problem at all. DA effects should rightfully be superior in a majority of cases to their non-DA'ed versions. Carve and Spit is a goalpost mechanic. It comes up once per minute to ensure that you are managing your mana properly, and if you aren't, you suffer a considerable DPS loss by either delaying its use or using the un-DA'ed version. Buffing the non-DA'ed version raises the skill floor, which is already stupidly high on this job, and makes getting off a DA-C&S less rewarding/less of a gain, which is the precise same problem as you have outlined with Bloodspiller in #8.

I agree that the DAed version of a skill should have a discernible and valuable gain over a non-DAed version of the ability to compensate for the resource cost.

The problem I have with C&S is that the difference is so great that the non-DAed version has absolutely no purpose and is, as you pointed out, just been degraded into a "fail condition". That to me is bad design and if that is the route the ability is to go they might as well just remove the whole DA aspect from it and make it simply cost 2400mp to use with 450 potency and keep the 60s recast.

The changes I proposed still keep DAed C&S as a dps gain over the non-DAed version, it just gives using it non-DAed some reason to exist outside of just as a punishment. The illusion of the non-DAed having a use, like with the current implementation, is pretty silly.

Honestly, I feel the current state of the non-DAed C&S is just a relic of 3.X where it actually had some fringe-case uses. However with the changes to how DRK manages, uses and regains mp in 4.X, it no longer fits. My proposed changes are an attempt to compensate for this.


I was a pretty brutalized victim of the DC relocation, and I frequently am saddled with 150-200 ping, and yet I rarely have the delay issue with TBN even when using it with a macro. However, the duration increase I have no argument with, it can and should happen.

The delay, from my experience, is a built in animation delay. It seems to be approximately 0.5s in length, going from the time the ability animation starts, through the raising of the sword and ending just a little before the sword is fully raised and the shield visually appears. If you get hit in this slight window the shield doesn't seem to be there. The status effect icon and timer seems to appear immediately as the animation starts though.

This is really a minor quibble and and more of an aside rather than a full on grevience.
The increase to 6 seconds was more to make it the same time as IB, which seemed fair.

I find buffs that give DRK more mana a bit extraneous, because the job is already drowning in it since SB; overflow is a very real danger and preventing it is a proper mechanic of the job. I think a very simple way to give this ability value would be to have it restore 20% of your HP immediately, and give you the mana if the mob dies. This way it has value regardless of the situation.

I proposed the mp gain boost to Syphon Strike because it creates the potential for a little extra burst dps through 1-2 extra DA uses or lets you go more defensive by providing the mp for more TBNs, which I feel covers more potential situations whether MT or OT. It could even be lined up with other buffs like Blood Weapon to create some really nice burst windows. While capping MP is a definite concern, as has been stated by yourself and others, that is the new resource management skill-test with 4.X, to burn through your resources fast enough to not cap and waste resources. I actually feel that being able to predict and prepare for windows where your resource gain will skyrocket will make the class more fun and more challenging to properly utilize to it's fullest.

I am actually torn on whether I want this to go with the proposed change of the mp gain boost from Syphon or an effect where the cost of DA is halved for the duration. My main hesitation for the latter is that it is really similar to WAR's Inner Release, but honestly I like that effect more but the recast would need to stay at 120s.


Self healing already counts towards cleansing Walking Dead actually, its just that ours is so paltry and healers so readily burst it off of you when they notice it that you barely see any effect. Honestly this ability should just be scrapped altogether and made into something else, its annoying as hell. I used to think this ability was great, because I had a static, then I took a break from the game and I've been living the pug life ever since, and even when I sub for organized groups, its as though healers don't even know this ability exists, its insane. I've mentioned elsewhere on the forums that 90% of the buffs that people suggest to LD actually make it worse in some ways. This is no exception, as I guarantee you this idea will just give healers an excuse to ignore it further if they don't care about your DPS.

I would be fine with Living Dead being completely scrapped and a more equivalent and usable ability being put in to replace it.
The proposed changes were just to make it a less craptastic and punishing ability to use.

Natural Bloodspillers are a significant potency gain. Its only when the blood to use them is proc'ed with TBN that the situation becomes dubious. I think the simplest solution here, and one that has been suggested many times, is to have TBN, if it pops, proc a free DA effect on your next Blood ability.

I know that a Blood Spiller that uses naturally gained Black Blood is a dps gain. The main point of the proposed changes was to provide a very slight bump to dps so that it is a gain no matter how the blood is gained when used with DA, which I feel is warranted since DRK needs a small boost in dps overall. It also provides the binary choice of focusing on burst dps by going the DA route or to go more the defensive/resource route while taking a slight dps hit by going the non-DAed route by having the non-DAed Blood Spiller shorten the recast of Delerium. This aspect is not unlike the proposal that you made for having DA shorten Delerium's recast, I just feel that Blood Spiller is a more fitting ability for that.

Meaningful options and choices, as opposed to punishments and fail conditions, seem to be absent from DRK in it's current implementation and that is something that I want to see put into the job with the changes made.

I'd also be very hesitant to add more to TBN (asides from the extra second of duration) since it is already pointed to by many players, falsely imo, as being such an amazing ability that it justifies DRK's glaring deficiencies. That is not a fire that I want to feed.


Perfect, no argument here. I don't even think it would be OP at 20s duration.

20s may not be OP, small changes like durations are easy to make. I just went with 15s for now because it seemed like a fair boost over the 10s duration of the original Dark Mind as well as lining up with other defensive durations like the proposed debuff from Dark Passenger. I was also hesitant to present a defensive cd, even a weakish one, that had a potential 33% uptime, especially when looking at how you could potentially have a 20% defensive up for over 50% of the time by rotating Rampart and DAed Darkmind/Shadowskin.

I was originally against a change like this for DM (lesser % reduction but for both magical and physical) because I felt that in the end it could potentially weaken DRK's ability to take busters, but with other changes I have proposed like the Dark Passenger debuff I felt that it compensated enough that it equaled out pretty well if the buffs and debuffs were stacked.


Between the MP and the increased duration on BP/BW, Delirium is actually the best use of your blood gauge at all times. In fact, using it in Grit on BP even is a gain over using Bloodspiller, the only reason this is looked down upon is that you then cannot use it on BW for 2 minutes, which is of course bad. Again I think a recast reduction mechanic tied to DA would work well here, such as reducing its recast by 2-5s per DA, or perhaps extend the BW/BP buff to 10/20s respectively from 8/16s.

I actually don't really have an issue with Delerium and what it's benefits are conceptually, it is more about addressing the feel of the ability when it is used. Since it mainly just increases the duration of other abilities that are buffs that provide small resource gains over a period of time, it just doesn't feel all too satisfying in the moment of activation. So I looked at the immediate MP gain that it provides, looked at what other abilities that the other tanks had that DRK didn't have an equivalent for, saw the lack of a burst heal like Equilibrium and Clemency and figured I could roll it into Delerium so that it provides a burst heal (which also helps on the defensive front) along with the existing MP gain and duration increase to BW and BP. I felt that little extra would provide that satisfying feeling when you use it while also filling a gap in DRK's toolset. I put in the Grit/non-Grit split to balance it out with Equilibrium. Also while Equilibrium has a 60s recast and Delerium has a 120s recast, I felt that the proposed additional effect for Blood Weapon of lowering the recast of Delerium evened things out.

@SyzzleSpark
Thanks for taking the time to read through my ideas and provide thoughtful feedback.
I hope my explanations above provide a better look into my thought process and reasoning for the proposed changes and the general direction I am trying to go.
I feel like we both, as well as many others, all seem to be in fairly close agreement where we want DRK to end up, we just have differing opinions on how to get there.
Let's keep the discussions, brainstorming and ideas open and flowing!

[Chrono_Rising]

Some ideas which I think are doable without suggesting complete new effects.

Soul Eater
I think rather than buffing soul eater it would be more effective to take soul eater out of grit and treat it more like siphon strike.
Grit: soul eater absorbs 100% of damage as HP
No Grit: Soul eater absorbs 50% of damage as HP

This alone could help ease the burden of healing a dark knight by a relatively small amount every 3 to 4 GCDs without needing to change the rest of our kit. It would function like a regen (weaker yes but still there) but on a 7 second tick rather than a 3 second tick. It would also make up for the missing passive mitigation of paladin and the higher uptime on mitigation of warrior while being different from both.

Delirium
I like the idea behind delirium, but I feel like either the cooldown needs to be reduced to 80 seconds, or it needs a stronger efffect. For example, since it is on a 2 minute cooldown why not make it double the duration of blood weapon/blood price rather than adding 8 or 16 seconds respectively. This would be a slight nerf to blood price, but would be a nice bump to blood weapon which I think most people would prefer to use it on.

Shadow Wall
This either needs a strong additional effect or a reduction in the cool down timer, ideally both. One cool effect, which would be worth the timer, would be to have a hit on shadow wall decrease the cost of the next skill by 20%. However, I think we are more likely to see a reduction in CD timer than a new effect.

The Blackest Night
Reduce the mp cost of this ability to 1800 mp. This solves the issues around no grit and TBN without buffing any potencies and brings the skill into line, cost wise, with grit.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

I personally like Lyth's ideas in the redesign thread, particularly regarding Delirium and Souleater. She brings up a lot of good points and Souleater could drain out of Grit and Delirium could be free without unbalancing the job or the tanks in the slightest.

Fact is there's so many ways to buff this job and when you take all those things into account it still doesn't come out as overpowered, which is pretty telling tbh.

[Chrono_Rising]

Agreed, very nice analysis and suggestions. I would repost it but I don't want to seem like I'm trying to take credit lol.