DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread

[Hierro]

Why is it so needlessly complex to AoE as DRK?


Back then you could use blood price in a large pull and spam abyssal drain for the entire duration of those 15 seconds. Was that too OP?

Now, we have to spend MP to gain blood via TBN. Then we use that blood to get more MP either through quietus or delirium.
the MP regen on BP is so poor I find myself staring at my blood gauge instead so I can use quietus instead. That mana is quickly spent because my shadow wall doesn't last long enough and find myself gasping for the HP bonus from DA'ing abyssal drain, which is not cheap by a long shot.

But even then the "spam" is short lived because quietus can only recover so much.

HW DRK was simple to dungeon with. SB DRK is rocket science by comparison. This isn't even diving into the added layer of complexity of quietus' interaction with blood weapon, which I myself still haven't figured out how to employ on a practical basis.

[SyzzleSpark]

Minor 70 DRK spoilers below:

That's precisely why I mentioned having a trait change the skill's name to TBN.

As for making us less reliant on TBN itself, I'm sort of torn because I like the idea of having it for every single tankbuster if you're managing MP properly, it feels "tanky". But if SE refuses to address the other aspects of our kit without nerfing TBN then I suppose it's neccesary, because it's silly that PLD and WAR just get outright superior defensive options and don't sacrifice damage or anything for them.

I honestly feel they could leave TBN alone and still fix Shadow Wall, Dark Mind and Soul Survivor and they still wouldn't be overpowered.

Crater made an interesing observation in this post, which is that DRK's design niche is tanking actively. Ever since reading that, I've changed my opinions somewhat, as he makes a very good point.

TBN is a powerful ability and one which really isn't like any other tank cooldown. The main things that need changing about it are its dubious effect on our DPS and resources, and people have suggested dozens of ways of fixing this, here are just a few examples:

-Reducing the mana cost
-Procing a DA effect if it pops
-Reducing the Blood Gauge cost/increasing the potency of Bloodspiller to make the gauge generation worth more potency
-Having TBN reduce the recast of various offensive abilities (C&S, Salted Earth, Delirium, etc.)

Nowadays, I'm fine with TBN being our "defensive Dark Arts" of sorts, however, even still, DM or Shadow Wall need fixing. The author of the post linked above believes the weakness of Shadow Wall is balanced by TBN (in much the same way as the old DD+Reprisal balanced it in 3.x), but that DM should be brought up to speed and work on physical damage, as well as receiving a duration increase, which I think is a good compromise, and one that, approaching 4.1, we are overdue for.

A cooldown that only works on magic damage in the current climate (PLD is able to block magic, WAR still as capable of tanking magic damage as it ever was) is just dated. Its powerful in o1, 2, and 4s, but that's it (and those encounters are clearly designed with it in mind, and indeed, the entire raid tier, as the only fight that has a physical buster (o3s) is designed in such a way that you have a ~30-40% extra mitigation CD in Awareness). Everywhere else it is extraneous, because magic damage is not present in this game in the way physical damage is. A cooldown like Raw Intuition may have the same problem from the other direction, however because of the ubiquity of physical damage, it is useful in the vast majority of content.

If this raid tier, and o3s in particular, proves anything to me, its that a change to DM surely is imminent, as SE will be unable to design a fight with a frequent physical buster that isn't a critical hit in the future, which seems like a ludicrous design restriction for them to enforce against themselves to accommodate a single job, especially when so much of the job's playerbase is acutely aware of said accommodation, and hates it.

What I'm about to suggest likely will never happen, but it would stave off ever-present fears of homogenization (and avoid the awkwardness of a cooldown called "Dark Mind" mitigating physical damage somehow):

Dark Mind: Reduces magic vulnerability by 10% for 15s. Recast: 50s. DA effect: Increases reduction to 30%.
Dark Shell: Reduces physical vulnerability by 10% for 15s. Recast: 50s. DA effect: Increases reduction to 30%. Shares a recast with Dark Mind. Has Shadowskin's old animation.

Why is it so needlessly complex to AoE as DRK?


Back then you could use blood price in a large pull and spam abyssal drain for the entire duration of those 15 seconds. Was that too OP?

Now, we have to spend MP to gain blood via TBN. Then we use that blood to get more MP either through quietus or delirium.
the MP regen on BP is so poor I find myself staring at my blood gauge instead so I can use quietus instead. That mana is quickly spent because my shadow wall doesn't last long enough and find myself gasping for the HP bonus from DA'ing abyssal drain, which is not cheap by a long shot.

But even then the "spam" is short lived because quietus can only recover so much.

HW DRK was simple to dungeon with. SB DRK is rocket science by comparison. This isn't even diving into the added layer of complexity of quietus' interaction with blood weapon, which I myself still haven't figured out how to employ on a practical basis.

In a word, yes, it was too OP. Or at least that's what SE thought. Imagine if WAR's old Zerk-Bloodbath-Overpower spam not only leeched HP but also TP, then you have an idea of what we enjoyed back in the day.

I'll admit DRK's AoE tanking rotation is far more complicated now. However, one thing hasn't changed: DRK needs big pulls. Everything hinges on it: Blood Price, Quietus, AD, even TBN. That having been said, there is a correct way to do it, at least based on my experience. Based on some key statement you made in your post, I don't think you're pulling enough, which is not a new problem for DRKs, as I frequently recall telling others to do this in 3.x as well.

There's a basic foundation you have to lay first: Pop a CD, Salted Earth, and BP. That's step 1. The next is TBN. If you've pulled enough it should pop quickly. This first burst of Blood is for Delirium. Delirium BP will sustain you very nicely. BP may have been nerfed hard but it is still very effective in large pulls. After that its just a matter of DA-AD ->Quietus ->TBN.

The key is to watch BP and adjust your play accordingly when it falls off. While its running you shouldn't have any problems. When it does fall off, its recast has only 9 seconds left (because of Delirium), so that's basically 3-4 GCDs, which I usually spend using HS-SS-SE-(DA)AD. After that you have BP and Salted Earth again and everything starts over. It is really complicated, but after most of the complexity of our job was removed in this expansion, I'll take my challenges where I can find them.

All this having been said, there are still key perks to AoE tanking on DRK that the other tanks don't have. In order to recover the resource PLD uses to AoE, they have to Flash and wait for TP ticks, which means doing no damage at all. We have cooldowns to do this while we continue AoEing, or at worst, we have to switch to a single-target rotation for a few GCDs, which is still damage. On WAR, you can recover your AoE resource through single-target, but that is it. There is no way to generate gauge or recover a significant amount of TP while AoEing. On DRK you can do it all simultaneously, so I'm fine with enduring added complexity in exchange for that.

[Hierro]

In a word, yes, it was too OP.

I don't think a fair comparison can be made to WAR's zerk OP spam. It carried far more power and sustainability than AD spam, even with grit off. Today WAR's AoE is better than ever thanks to berserk being available for every pull and IR for every other pull with decimate spam, but SE only removed the self sustain. Since DRK's damage is nowhere near that level, why couldn't they have removed the self-sustain and leave the rest alone? Why is it complex to do casual content and simple to do endgame raiding?

Back in 3.x I pulled as far as the dungeon allowed. I'm no stranger to making big pulls and using my CDs effectively and gauging what I can and can't handle. That said, I have deliberately not pulled as much as allowed in certain spots for one reason or another. Either healers today just aren't what they used to be, or these mobs are hitting incredibly hard.

[Xenosan]

I don't even think BP nerf was due to being AOE overly strong, more-so collateral damage to a necessary change to address defense play of lvl70 DRK, they realized 4.0 DRK, defensively, is now almost entirely a resource-centric kit.

The BP -> (Grit)Siphon Strike MP adjustment was needed to normalize DRK MP returns so defensive output wasn't limited or too varying and contingent on a 15s-in-every-40s CD window. (since we've already got the long recast limitation of PLD kit bar DM/Bulwark)

For defense I think they could just embrace new resource playstyle for DRK. Resource based actions should have much lower cooldowns, as emphasis is on having the resource necessary to use them, not waiting for a recast for them to be available. Apply this to Shadow Wall, make it resource emphasis, not just recast, or a mix of both (ie Dark Mind).

To compensate for MP demand, improve DRK MP restoration by either addressing Bloodspiller (Siphon MP restore) or improve MP restore CDs so DRK has larger than just a 15-of-40 second window (imo a third for 30 seconds in 40 uptime). 37.5% uptime is not enough considering the resource demands and what DRK gets for that cost.

I think I'd be okay with full resource style DRK defense kit, if they actually commit fully to that mold, and not this one-foot-in, one-foot-out transition 4.0 changes put DRK in.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

Nothing personal, but I aggressively disagree with most of this post.

I'll start off just by saying that what you suggest could work with massive buffs to our resource generation as you said, but this doesn't actually fix the core problem. You give the job more resources, then there's just that much more incentive to use as small a portion of those resources on mitigation as possible. If we go from generating an average of 1000 MPS to 2000 MPS it still just means we'll want that much more of that mana to go to DA or AoEs instead of mitigation.

Resource based mitigation isn't a playstyle, its a handicap, particularly when our DPS is resource based as well. Paying for DA-DM and TBN is already an obnoxious cost, so making the entirety of our kit like this will doubtlessly not be a popular change. Its akin to making FoF or Berserk or Requiescat share recast timers with Sentinel or Vengeance or ToB. I can only imagine the rage changes like that would cause, and rightfully so. Making defensive skills and offensive skills share recasts with one another is almost exactly the same concept and effect as making our entire kit resource based.

Our DPS is resource based, and that is fine, but in a sense, almost every job in this game is resource based in one way or another, and to varying extents, so I submit that this is not an identity or a playstyle in any real sense of either term.

I once again have to agree with Crater's analysis in the thread/post I linked above, which is that DRK is about active DPS, and active mitigation. If there's anything that SE has done successfully with DRK its giving it this identity. You don't push Berserk and get a 30% boost for 20s, you push actively push DA and get an on-demand, Berserk-style boost on a per-GCD basis. TBN works in almost the exact same way, but for defensive merit rather than offensive. Resources are the problem, not the solution.

Now that I think of it, its kinda funny that people complain about PLD's gauge being used only for defense, because this actually works in the job's favor. It pulls from TP and MP for DPS and its gauge for defense. There's no conflict of interest in that design, such as it is (there could be more uses for the gauge altogether other than the mere 2 that currently exist, but I digress). This is not to say I would want Blood Gauge usage to be purely defensive/offensive, and Mana usage to be purely the other, but its interesting to note.

An interesting mechanic SE seems to be testing the waters with is the exchange of these resources, which is what needs to be expanded on. TBN is already a little pass-fail game mechanic of its own. If you use it properly, it pops, it gives you something back for your investment. Currently however, you don't cut a profit from this. 2400 Mana that can be spent OFF the GCD > 50 Blood Gauge that, outside of Delirium, can only be spent ON the GCD. 4.0 DRK is old enough now that timing TBN is not as daunting as it was at first, but that still doesn't fix the problem. A popped TBN is only a gain in Grit, which means overall, its a loss. You put all of our defensives on this same price-cost markup, and you've just made a tank that literally never wants to tank.

SE has already committed to an active tanking playstyle with DRK and this was true in 3.x as well. There's not a problem with this design, and again, as stated in that link I posted earlier, I have to agree that this is pretty much DRK's entire reason for existing in the game. We go your route and we end up with just a really expensive WAR/PLD clone that can't DPS and mitigate in harmony. The problem isn't in the design of the job, honestly, but in its tuning. Costs are too high and benefits are too paltry. The best way to remedy this is to expand on TBN as a resource converter, possibly add more resource conversion into the job's toolkit, and reward us more concretely for mastering it on a fight-by-fight basis. TBN is already such a large proportion of our total mitigation now that there isn't any need to design our other CDs in this same fashion, and DM already is a middle ground between the two in terms of resource usage (or it should be, if they can simply have it work on physical damage.)

There's other design choices in DRK that really don't make sense or jive with this active playstyle, but are just tacked-on. TBN works mechanically for what it is, but things like Living Dead and Sole Survivor are just overly-conditional, meandering, convoluted "if/if not-then" nonsense and frankly just need to be simplified. Simple solutions and simplification in general were supposed to be a defining motif for this expansion. LD could just be a 12s Holmgang with a longer recast. Sole Survivor could just be an instant 20% HP/MP restore and it frankly wouldn't be broken given its recast compared to the accessibility of Equilibrium and Clemency. These have nothing to do with a resource-based or active playstyle, and are just messy and needless.

They just need to fix DP, make TBN a significant DPS gain when used properly, and either cut Shadow Wall's recast and increase its duration, or (preferably) make DM work on all damage types. There's other tweaks here and there that could be made (LD, Sole Survivor, etc...) but if they could just fix these 3 things, everyone's life would be so much easier.

[Xenosan]

I agree with both your and Craster assessments, my thoughts come from the same reasonings:

- Dark Mind: 30% reduction should be base. Dark Arts extends duration. Accentuate the contrast of effects of DA+DM and TBN. I don't think any mitigation cooldown should be made stronger with Dark Arts, TBN has that capability covered. DA on defensive cooldowns should prolong their duration or add utility.

If cooldowns like DM also had an added utility effect, like Blood Price's MP procs on being hit, then DA use on these CDs in the right circumstance could be a payoff dis-similar but akin to TBN's Blood return (not as gainful yet also not being an all-or-nothing return).

Dark Mind working on all damage types would be great, too. I really want that. But I don't think Dark Mind is going to get that change.

So rename Dark Mind.

Rename it Shadow Wall. See how I got to here?

Shadow Wall, 60sec recast, 10 sec duration
*Partial MP restored when attacked.
*Mitigates 30% of incoming damage,
*Dark Arts effect: Extends duration to 15-20 seconds,

If DRK is keeping a magical only niche, I think it needs to be less relevant. It would be better for the that niche Cooldown to be the cost-free, 10-second ability with a 3 minute recast - giving DRK a small(er) edge in magical, but otherwise, it isn't entirely missed.

And if mitigation strength is base, and DA just extends duration, I'd think you'd see about the same DA/TBN use as now (assuming magical fight) - or less. But because you'd either DA+cooldown for sustaining mitigation, or cooldown+TBN for strength against tankbusters, you'd rarely - if ever - use both simultaneously (die DA+DM+TBN).

Resource based mitigation isn't a playstyle, its a handicap, particularly when our DPS is resource based as well.

But I can see the potential pro to this as much as the con,

Regarding Dark Passenger,

reverting it to 3.x so that it's a small potency gain in single target over DA is one solution, and the simplest. What I would also consider, which I think is where there will be disagreement. What I would like to see, overall, a distinct niche for each of DRKs 3 MP cost abilities: {TBN, DA, & DP} (DA vs TBN already mentioned). They are the trifecta imo.

To that end, I'd be okay with DP being a ~20 potency loss in single target (same or closer damage to DA damage, 120-140, but no Slashing debuff) with a Blind base (or some better utility effect, a flat 300-400 potency heal for example), but no Dark Arts effect,

but most significantly: a 10 second or less recast (even as low as Dark Arts' 2 second recast).

There is little point to a recast limitation when DP use already eats 25% of your mana.

Lustrate isn't better than Tetra/ED because it has a 1 second recast.

And there is no point to a Dark Arts effect on DP when it itself functions as an alternative to a DA. (Again assuming not an attempt to revert it to 3.x)

Also can delete the redundancy of Dark Arts Quietus in this scenario. It already shouldn't exist. But if DRK wants to boost AOE damage, DP is always available and there for that purpose, not a DA effect that does the same thing (for 50 potency less). I'd gladly trade the Quietus DA effect for an in-Grit potency increase like Bloodspiller.

Another feature of this would be DRK would have back at least one MP return action that doesn't consume DA. That is the only grievance I have with SS getting a DA effect. DRK has no way of restoring MP (sans Delirium) without consuming DA in the process. A deliberate but obnoxious trap SE threw on the job I think.

I admit this isn't the in-demand fix for Dark Passenger - especially regarding single target where DPS actually matters for Raid bosses. But I'd look at other abilities first. I'd like Dark Passenger as part of a {DP, DA, TBN} trinity that don't step on one another: DP could fill a hole by replacing DA+SS/SE/PS in multitarget - a better active Berserk for 2+ mobs. It would be a good boost in low level pulls and for 2-4 mob pulls, where DA-AD and Quietus aren't really granting a whole lot as they would a larger pack.

Need more ways to manipulate resources. We can convert MP into Blood (adding Blood gain to DA & DP, like TBN, would be swell - again that {TBN, DA, DP} trifecta), but we can't as easily convert Blood to MP (Delirium, Quietus ... Hey Bloodspiller get with the program).

If Bloodspiller was given some sort of MP recovery forgiveness (if not an outright MP return), than that is all the DPS increase TBN needs imo. TBN already does enough just giving the +50 Blood for BS if BS is buffed.

I'd rather have additional DPS buffs to the lower line of the kit, before Stormblood. Salted Earth is one good soldier that never gets any attention. C&S even could be cranked up.

I think this all illuminates the fact that DRK is a resource job. DPSing SCH can get messy thanks to Miasma II, and Energy Drain being required to prevent OOMP, that does feel similar. But I like that edgy.

And like SCH/SMN, the MP cost of Grit/Darkside activation is as stupid as the steep cost of Summoning pets. What's the hold up SE.

[SyzzleSpark]

snip

You keep saying "If DRK is x, then y" where x is readily defined as something that is not actually unique to DRK (being a resource job) or something that the majority of the playerbase doesn't want (shoehorned into magic mitigation niche), and this is where we really disagree. Not only are these not things that are really all that appealing, but they aren't a playstyle. With the exception of resource conversion mechanics like TBN and Delirium, WAR and PLD are every bit as resource-centric now, in 4.x. PLD's ability to block magic now means that DRK isn't the "magic mitigation tank" it is the "anything but physical mitigation tank". These aren't "niches" or "playstyles" that we want.

Now that I think about it, Sheltron is a resource conversion mechanic that works very similarly to TBN. Wanna know why its better? Its better (as a resource converter, anyway) because it pulls from a mitigation resource (Oath Gauge), gives you mitigation, and then rewards DPS (Mana). That's a net positive. TBN pulls from a DPS resource (mana), gives you mitigation, then then rewards a different DPS resource (Blood Gauge) in a quantity that is mathematically inferior to the initial investment.

The "active" tank is a playstyle. It appeals to a statistically significant segment of the playerbase (people that like engaging, fast-paced, "button-mashy" and frenetic gameplay), and actually intrinsically makes DRK feel and play differently from the other tanks, throughout its entire kit, whether DPSing (Dark Arts) or mitigating (TBN). This is what a playstyle is. And it has its advantages.

The problem boils down to this playstyle requiring precision in a way that others don't, and there being no reward for its investment. This is where resources come in. They are the means to the end, not the end itself (i.e. the "playstyle"). However, the end that they are a means to sees no real profit. An active playstyle as I said, requires precision, so this is the pass-fail test that warrants a reward, and currently that reward is paltry at best or nonexistent at worst. Its not like Dissipation on SCH or Hagakure on SAM where you just push a button and boom, resources converted. You must actively time and precisely utilize these abilities. We don't want more resource mechanics until we get more reward for mastering the ones we already have.

There's no need to give everything half a dozen additional effects or stance dependent effects, or to have everything come with strings attached to something else. C&S and Salted Earth could have some more interesting mechanics or just see straight-up buffs, but I'd rather see the resource conversions and reward mechanics that we already have fixed and adjusted before we add new ones.

[NymeriaVelaris]

make TBN a significant DPS gain when used properly

I dont agree with this idea at all.

The Blackest Night is fine as it is. Currently the Bloodspiller you gain from it is (in terms of dps) worth exactly the same as an extra Dark Arts, this is intended and makes sense. (there is a very minimal potency difference outside of Grid, but its super small and doesnt matter at all in the end)

The reason for that is if every TBN proc would be a significant dps gain it would be a nightmare to maximize your dps. You would basically have to use TBN successfully every 15 seconds, even if there are only auto attacks for it to proc (which are already a bit of a hassle because of the small TBN window).
The skill ceiling of the class would go through the roof.
Some people would probably even start to take unnecessary damage just to get an extra TBN proc for more personal DPS.

In the end it would make your DPS dependend on the outgoing damage of the encounter, which is not a good thing.

If you do content outside of current savage raid tier or your item level rises, your TBN shield might not get broken anymore. Or imagine you do 24 raids, you are not tanking, the MT is in another party and you cant use TBN on him.
DRK would do less damage overall, since if they would make the change some other skills will have to be nerfed to make it even.

The reward for using TBN successfully is the mitigation you gain from it without any dps loss. This is also on a very short cooldown and usable outside of tank stance.
TBN is already a powerful and rewarding tool.

I do understand if you wish for more depth for the class in terms of dpsing, but your suggestion is not the right way to do it imo.

[SyzzleSpark]

The Blackest Night is fine as it is. Currently the Bloodspiller you gain from it is (in terms of dps)worth exactly the same as an extra Dark Arts, this is intended and makes sense.

Your PPGCD actually falls more often than not when you do this, the math on this is all over the place.

No one is saying it isn't powerful, or that the active playstyle it enables isn't rewarding. But the resource conversion is imbalanced. It was balanced, briefly, between 4.01 and 4.05, and then it was back to being a small loss.

As you point out, its a hassle to use on AAs, which is where it gets used quite often because it is frequently the only form of mitigation during those periods since DRK lacks any other form of high uptime mitigation that isn't better served being used against burst damage/TBs. This is the whole reason why it should be an actual gain, instead of a loss, because if you want mitigation you can and will be using it frequently against AAs, where it may or may not pay off - so its price/payoff ratio could be adjusted. It totally is not the same as an "extra Dark Arts". 50 Blood does not equal 2400 mana in potency.

If you don't believe me, just take a gander at flogs; in optimized runs with a DRK in the party, said DRKs are typically using TBN less than 10 times in as many minutes. I've seen some 9-10 minute encounters with only 5-6 casts of TBN. Basically if you're looking to optimize you actually wanna use it as little as possible - this is something that I think is silly and ought to be fixed. Its part of our core cooldown suite, it isn't some bonus extra safety net for prog or screw-ups like IB or Clemency. Saying you gain mitigation from it without a DPS loss is misinformation.

[NymeriaVelaris]

If you don't believe me, just take a gander at flogs; in optimized runs with a DRK in the party, said DRKs are typically using TBN less than 10 times in as many minutes. I've seen some 9-10 minute encounters with only 5-6 casts of TBN. Basically if you're looking to optimize you actually wanna use it as little as possible - this is something that I think is silly and ought to be fixed. Its part of our core cooldown suite, it isn't some bonus extra safety net for prog or screw-ups like IB or Clemency. Saying you gain mitigation from it without a DPS loss is misinformation.

As it was already said, its a minimal dps loss/gain (low single digit potency differences), not worth talking about. Its the closest thing the devs managed to create. I think its unnecessary to make a fuss about it at this point.
There is no reason not to use TBN successfully as much as possible even while doing speedruns. In the contrary, it also helps healers dps.

The reason why people dont use TBN on cooldown/more often is that it can be risky on non-telegraphed attacks or autos. Also TBN is only 10% on your tank partner, which is nice but basically never needed if they have decent gear and planned out their own cooldowns, which is the case in optimized runs. Casting another DA for the same DPS gain is just easier.

There actually isn't a problem with having TBN being part of dps optimisation. Third Eye/Seigan on SAM can be used to give you minor resource gains if you use it correctly by predicting incoming damage, and that's on a dps job.

There is, as i have pointed out. Your comparison to Third Eye isnt quite fitting. Third Eye just needs the player to be hit by any damage to proc. It will work on any level on any content and since you are never tanking as SAM its very predictable to use, cause you dont deal with autos and you just need one hit. It also doesnt cost any recources. TBN on the other hand needs to break completely in 5 seconds to proc and has costs.