How does SE justify these ten min enrages, but doesnt let anyone know their dps

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I sure would love a parser In game. I have no way of knowing if I need to improve or not in an actual fight. Sure I can hit the SSS dummy and get my numbers that way (which btw, is still calculated by an outside source, SE doesn't even let us see actual nunbers, just the dummy exploding), but it's heavily skewed by rotations you wouldn't actually do in a battle, the fact that you have 0 obstacles in your way and the parse being below 3 mins.

[uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu]

Mechanics and DPS aren't mutually exclusive. Look at OS3, for instance - it demands a relatively high amount of damage from each player, but is also pretty mechanics-heavy. The job of a DPS is to push out as much damage as possible while doing mechanics correctly - I'm not sure what your point is.

A simple HP per time gauge for the party would be sufficient for that.
Im not for or against showing my own damage, but it becomes the pointing game for leaderboards
and enrage doesn't really relate to single person but more than one.
Anyway, the suggestion is moot because once it out, SE have to police people's interactions
even if it's for ourself, plus fixing 2 different things on a single content/fight if there's a bug .

[HyoMinPark]

Bring me the group that is this because I've never seen it. but to play along then they aren't doing their rotation right simple as that. that is a go look at a guide problem not break out the parser problem. Back to reality this is rare no group is able to do mechanics flawlessly and not know how to play their roles

You must not PUG very often then. Because I've seen groups like this a lot. And even if it's a rotation issue, gear issue, whatever issue, my point still stands: meeting enrage is a lot more than just "not dying and pressing 1-2-3." The poster I was responding to is basically saying meeting enrage = not dying. You can still meet enrage with deaths, and you can still NOT meet enrage with NO deaths. There's much more that goes into successfully clearing a fight than just "not dying." If a group doesn't have the overall DPS to clear a fight (V1S and V2S take roughly 20k to 21k DPS to clear just before enrage goes off), it doesn't matter if no one dies. They won't be meeting enrage with 15k Raid DPS or 17k Raid DPS.

Parsers are not the devil. The people that use them to fuel abuse and harassment are the bad guys here. Not the parsers. And really, in my experience, I have met and reported ONE person who actively harassed people based off of their parse. Ironically enough, they weren't doing so hot either, so not sure what they were trying to accomplish other than blame-shifting for the wipes. But the fact of the matter still stands. Jerks are going to be jerks, parser or no parser. So parsers aren't the bad guy here; they're just, unfortunately, used as a tool in the harassment, and, as a result, are cast in an unfavorable light from there on out.

[TankHunter678]

-snip-

I was speaking from my personal experience, in which what I said for my experience was a fact to me. What is a fact to me, from my experience, is an anecdote to others.

Yes there are people who do not bring up parse results, or people like my static's MT who posts the parse data up and does a breakdown on things like DoT uptime but otherwise makes no comment on the data itself and instead focuses on any mechanic troubles we were having. Also they focus on the boss health loss rate rather then any individual DPS amount, because ultimately that is the value that is most important.

However there is a much larger majority that use the data as an excuse to attack people because it validates their opinion that "you suck and should uninstall this game, you are a piece of shit blight on this community". Something that an official parser can encourage to happen. Which will make it hard for SE support staff as they would be getting a large influx of reports, or it may just result in people becoming apathetic that anything will get done and stop reporting all together because its "normal" to be harassed over your DPS numbers (even when you were say a RDM who spent most of the time trying to keep getting people back up so the healers can still have MP to focus on healing because people keep fucking up mechanics).

On the subject itself on enrage timers, they exist as another element of challenge to help EX and Savage content live up to their name. If there were no enrages then people would just endlessly do the mechanic dance once learned and eventually take down the boss. Making the difficulty of the difficulty become "learn the mechanic dance" which is something everyone can do.

If Savage and EX primals are there for people to push themselves, they need more then just a mechanic dance. They need a limiter beyond straight mechanics so they do not just half ass play their class and still clear. Hence why the enrages exist.

There is no parser beyond a target dummy with a time trial because parsers have historically destroyed the community aspects of many MMOs and as such Yoshi P does not want them in the game. This is why they gave us SSS to test our combos against.

[Snow_Princess]

The main issue with adding a DPS parser to the game is that it focuses the game on DPS.

I agree with this issue.
But this is not a problem with adding a parser.This is a problem with adding a parser in the wrong way.

A DPS-only parser gives the impression of things being DPS-focused and it can destroy a community by providing a lopsided view of what's required to be a good player.

A DPS-only parser would be terrible in FF14 simply because DPS doesn't tell the whole story about being a good player. It just shows if you can skew one facet of the game to lean more your way for a certain fight. Exceptionally high DPS in a fight only shows you relied on your other party members to do mechanics or to heal you through what you should have spent time on dodging.

So, what's the good way?
Well, what makes a good player?

A good player (in no particular order):
-Manages their DPS (more, more, more!)
-Manages agro (either enough as a tank or not-too-much as a non-tank)
-Manages their health (either by healing or dodging avoidable AoE)
-Manages mechanics (helping the group clear)

Therefore, a good way to do parsing would be to have a metric for each of these important aspects.

Having "just a DPS parser" is as good as having "just an agro parser."
Both provide useful aspects on their own, but both are laughable as some sort of evaluation for "how you are as a whole player." This only sows confusion into the community. The kind of confusion that breeds negativity.

So, show people how they can actually be "good players."
Give us a good parser.
Show us what we all want to know.

Example of a good parser:
-provide an understandable DPS metric
AND -provide an agro metric
AND -provide a healing metric
AND -provide a damage taken metric
AND -provide a mechanics-followed metric

If you do all of this, then you can do "a parser" in the right way and add a great level of benefit to the entire community.

No one can say "your DPS is low" if right beside that value it shows you did all the mechanics in the dungeon and no one else did any. Without you, everyone else would have 0 DPS.

No one can say "learn to heal" when the metric shows they stood in the last 5 avoidable AoEs.

Worried about trolling?
Easy fix to that.
Keep the same regulations about reporting players who use numbers to abuse others.
Make the metrics non-sharable-in-game (personal parsers). You can even only have them show up after you leave the instance.
Make the metrics available (showable) as an option. The default is off. Players must want to find the setting and turn it on.

There are many, many ways to do a good parser that shows all areas of how a "good player" should be. It would be great to know how we're doing and compare it to the average-last-50-runs of the same instance or something like that.

I fully agree that we should not add "just a DPS parser." But, I really, really, really want a good parser that shows all the aspects of playing this game well.

This game does not have agro management, FFXI did, this one no. If there is aggro/hate management issues it is a tank problem, it is that simple. A tank that wants to dps more can get agro management tools either by talking about it in a pug ( shadewaker from nin for opener, etc) or having DPS use their tools so they can do so, like diversion, refresh/tactics/ etc... The only argo heavy things that exist are heavy opening openers like my personal experience BLM and MCH, you could easy rip hate off mediocre tanks without using them with those hard hitting openers as well as ripping argo off bad tanks WHILE using them. I got kicked once for "hitting too much buttons" despite me pointing out I did quelling strikes with my raging strikes opener (and took hate after both fallen off, so it was not even heavy hitting damage that point)

You do not need an "agro metric" the game does that, and parsers from the dawn of time, ones that i seen in wow, along for ffxiv, have healing metrics like overheal who did most healing and so on. I am sure they have damage taken as well

mechanics-followed metric makes no sense, you can see that. (also can be seen with the damage taken stats)

Really though, still waiting on the main point of this thread though, why is there strict DPS checks and no official parser ? You do understand what the game does to DPS check right? like on niddy if you do not kill those adds fast enough, and it was common to see back at i200, then your party wipes and need start over. Has nothing to do with any other metric to get it done. In that situation it would be nice to see who is not doing enough dps so you can advice on what to do, or be forced to kick them because the reason you are wiping is because of this person not doing enough DPS because of the DPS check. If yoshi-p hates any form of harassment over doing enough dps , then you NEED TO REMOVE !!! DPS checks because having dps checks without parser makes no sense.

On the subject itself on enrage timers, they exist as another element of challenge to help EX and Savage content live up to their name. If there were no enrages then people would just endlessly do the mechanic dance once learned and eventually take down the boss. Making the difficulty of the difficulty become "learn the mechanic dance" which is something everyone can do.

If Savage and EX primals are there for people to push themselves, they need more then just a mechanic dance. They need a limiter beyond straight mechanics so they do not just half ass play their class and still clear. Hence why the enrages exist.

Ok? what about the causal content that has them though?

[Azure51]

No all the fights have 10min enraged, some have 15 min and others 8

[missybee]

However there is a much larger majority that use the data as an excuse to attack people because it validates their opinion that "you suck and should uninstall this game, you are a piece of shit blight on this community".

You say that, but if anyone actually says something like that it's an easy temp ban at least (assuming they get reported, which they should).

Again, anecdotes, but I've literally had ONE person in the entirety of my playtime tell me I was doing poor DPS, and a) I was dead, and b) I was also parsing and saw that I was not.

Obviously, your mileage may vary...but again, parsing isn't the enemy. People who are a-holes are the enemy.

[TankHunter678]

-snip-

In FFXIV I have not really had anyone telling me I was doing bad DPS.

In WoW it was once every other dungeon I did not run with friends.

While yes parsing by itself is not a bad thing, the main problem with it is that assholes love to be validated. It emboldens them to be even more belligerent then normal, and its something that parsers have historically lead to. As well as the eventual apathetic belief that reporting does nothing.

It is not that I do not think that parsers are bad, they can be used for good things. They just also bring more bad then good on a community level.

[eschaton]

DPS classes have it so easy in this game they want to look at numbers while doing end-game raiding. That should tell you something right there.

No seriously; there are minimum ilevel requirements and the fights are tailored around that, and let's add; plus they are tailored pretty good around that with a good margin of people having human reflexes not to hit enrage, a parse was and never will be needed to clear an enrage. Don't be afk, don't die and your party will not enrage with the current content and fight requirements. Stop the BS to have a counter in-game which you can already use for crying out loud, in private, for whatever reason it is you think -you- need it. (grey area)

[Welsper59]

Didn't read all 17 pages, so not sure if this was stated. For as long as this argument about parsers has existed, most people involved are misguided in their belief on what happens with parsers being allowed.

The pro-parser crowd seems to be under the false belief that parsers will magically make terrible players play better by its allowance. For the 13+ years I've played WoW, this has not once been a fact. Not a single point in the games history has that been a universal action.

What is a fact about parsers though is that it helps everyone that is willing to improve. Bolded for emphasis. If the player currently is not willing to improve in this game, parsers will not do anything. I've seen arguments in response to that being along the lines of "well they would improve because people would call them out on it", but to that I have to point out how that is, in fact, the witch hunt mentality that the devs currently are against. It only hurts the pro-parser argument thinking that. For the individual and their static group, parsers are what you want to use if you want to improve. Given the situation unofficial allowance of parsers for such a thing, you're kind of set right now.

With the anti-parsers group, witch hunts already exist in some form. People that are d-bags are going to be d-bags with or without a parser. Once they cross a line, even if parsers were officially allowed, report them. Nothing changes from what it is now, besides the concept that they have one more tool to use to expose themselves. If anything, that can be looked at as a positive point. Peer pressure to improve is NOT always a bad thing. Most of the time, that can be good, especially if it's said player that is either causing the group to wipe or is always being carried. Being pushed to improve is normal in life. Don't want to be poor? Do what needs to be done to land a good job. The higher up the ranks you want to be, the more effort you have to put into it, even if the effort involves sacrifice.

Now when it comes to the devs, you gotta remember that it's under the general Japanese mentality. Working with what's there to improve, if that's what your goal is. Part of the "fun" being figuring it out and hoping for the best. Sometimes that involves being told every little detail, but it's rarely expected. I'd hope most of us would agree that anything outside of Savage and some Extreme fights at any point of this game, parsing isn't exactly a mandatory thing that upgrading some gear wouldn't solve for a player that plays all right. Yeah, it is kind of backwards as to why they don't just allow parsers officially, but not having their own system for it isn't unusual. That's actually par for the course.

I'm actually more of the pro-parser crowd than the anti. Despite that though, I personally do not find any significant reason for there to be any change on where we are now about it. It'd be nice that they were officially allowed, likewise with addon support in general, but parsers are not something that would change the game for the better, nor would it make it worse.