4.05 - Tank DPS comparison

[Shinkyo]

Bloodspiller doesnt need to be off gcd.

Why TBN into BS should be a dps gain over a DA? there is no reason for such a thing.

Because the Dev team is implying so by the current design of TBN.
Why does TBN use the same amount of MP as DA? Why does TBN reward you with 50 gauge on shield break?

They are trying to encourage us to use the skill and want to reward you with resources that you can only spend on DPS abilities.
If TBN was only meant to be a mitigation tool, they should have made it a CD at no cost and no gauge rewards.
Now, TBN to fuel Delirium or Quietus is a DPS gain. But to fuel a BS, it is not.

[Reynhart]

Why does TBN use the same amount of MP as DA? Why does TBN reward you with 50 gauge on shield break?

Dark Passenger cost one DA. Is the dev team implying it to be a DPS gain ?

TBN is a mitigation tool above all. The Blood reward is just that, a reward. It's our way of quickly building our gauge, like Infuriate for WAR or Holy Spirit+ShO for PLD.

[dragonseth07]

Because the Dev team is implying so by the current design of TBN.
Why does TBN use the same amount of MP as DA? Why does TBN reward you with 50 gauge on shield break?

They are trying to encourage us to use the skill and want to reward you with resources that you can only spend on DPS abilities.
If TBN was only meant to be a mitigation tool, they should have made it a CD at no cost and no gauge rewards.
Now, TBN to fuel Delirium or Quietus is a DPS gain. But to fuel a BS, it is not.

To be fair here, what the devs intend doesn't mean jack. It's about the reality of what they implement.

[Shinkyo]

Dark Passenger cost one DA. Is the dev team implying it to be a DPS gain ?

TBN is a mitigation tool above all. The Blood reward is just that, a reward. It's our way of quickly building our gauge, like Infuriate for WAR or Holy Spirit+ShO for PLD.

There's no denying the value of TBN as a mitigation. No one is saying TBN is wasted MP. Only want to clarify that being able to use BS does not result in a dps increase, if that's what people are trying to get out of it.

[Quor]

There's no denying the value of TBN as a mitigation. No one is saying TBN is wasted MP. Only want to clarify that being able to use BS does not result in a dps increase, if that's what people are trying to get out of it.

I disagree. Based on what I'm seeing here, if there's going to be a delay of even a single GCD for whatever reason (boss re-positions, a knockback) then using BS is a gain. Furthermore, if there's any kind of vuln debuff or other similar thing on the boss, then the effect of the higher potency single GCD of BS is worth "delaying" a combo by 1 GCD.

Again, people need to stop thinking of these fights as massive immovable walls that can be attacked constantly without interruption. There are discrete pockets of time wherein higher damage skills are rewarded more than they would be otherwise. As a SAM, I can blow Guren as soon as it comes off cooldown, and most of the time that's at least ok, but in fights like Susie EX, saving it to break a rock while lining it up to hit both the rock and Susie is a DPS gain that's worth delaying the usage of the skill (as long as it's not delayed more than a minute). Likewise, as WAR, saving Zerk+IR for a few seconds longer is a huge gain if it means I'm dropping those FC's in a TA window.

Here's a more simple calculation than the "average potency per GCD" bs from earlier on.

SE combo = 700 potency over 3 GCD's.
Bloodspiller = 400 potency for 1 GCD.
TBN, if broken, allows for another BS due to the 50 blood gained. Thus, for this example, I'll assume TBN was used (but not DA, on BS or SE, that'll come later) to allow for a third BS, and that the DRK is at 100 blood gauge going in. Now the SE combo takes place over three GCD's, while BS is a single GCD, so we'll be comparing a point at which the two intersect, which will consist of 12 GCD's. This is 4 SE combos or three SE combos + 3 BS.

4 SE combos over 12 GCD's results in a net gain of 2800 potency.
3 SE combos + 3 BS over 12 GCD's results in a net gain of 3300 potency. Again, this assumes no DA's in either combo, and single use of TBN in the second combo to enable a third BS. But even without that third BS, if we just factor in a Hard Slash as the 12th GCD (instead of a BS) then that's still 3050 potency total over 12 GCD's, which is more than just running the SE combo.

Now let's look at what DA does, compared to TBN (since the argument is that TBN is always a potency loss over DA). For this example, we will use four DA's in the SE combo (all on SE) and 3 DA's + one TBN in the BS combo. That means an equal amount of mana was spent, and again we are starting at 100 blood gauge in the tank for the BS combo.

4 SE + DA combos over 12 GCD's results in a net gain of 3360 potency.
2 non-DA SE combos plus one DA+SE, and 3 DA+BS (including TBN) over 12 GCD's results a net gain of 3860 potency.

Or, for those who would prefer to see an average, you have 280 PPGCD for the pure DA+SE combo vs 321.7 PPGCD for the combo that uses 3 DA+BS and TBN.

About opportunity cost

There is none. It's a bullshit idea. It's a simple as using BS appropriately, even to the point of using TBN to get another BS, results in an increase in damage. There is no "opportunity" cost because you are spending a resource that has no use unless it is spent. A good analogy of this was posted by Reynhart earlier; the reasoning used to justify this "opportunity cost" BS is not just logically unsound, but it's Jackie Chan "my head is full of fuck" levels of idiocy. Utilizing a higher potency skill is never an opportunity cost (again, as long as it's done right, see above RE: proper use of cooldowns to maximize gain based on the situation).

This strikes me as a discussion very similar to what I remember some DRG's saying back when FnC and WT came out. The argument against using FnC and WT was that, well, Full Thrust has like, 300 potency! It hits harder than FnC and WT do! So just restart the FT combo! This ignored that adding a 200+ potency hit on the tail end of the combo resulted in more overall damage due to a higher average PPGCD. And it looks like DRK has the same issue here; even though BS is on the GCD, it's not a "loss" to use it, and it's also apparently not a loss to use TBN to get another BS, since in both examples above it's a pure potency gain (and also as Reynhart noted, resources exist to be consumed, not to be stocked endlessly without use).

FUCK IT. Let's go deeper.

Doing all of that above, I realized that since BS is a GCD skill, it has no combo limitations like SE does. It's just a pure 400 (or 540) potency per GCD. This means that while my 12 GCD calculation works in a "theoretical" sense, it isn't a full reflection of the possibilities. You could easily get 3 DA+BS in 5 GCD's.

DA+BS > HS > DA+BS > SS > DA+BS = 2020 potency over 5 GCD's, or 404 PPGCD. Of course, this is predicated on the belief that BS does not interrupt combos in progress, like Fell Cleave or Iaijutsu currently function. If I'm wrong there then let me know because I'll have to reward things.

For comparison, here's a SAM blowing Meikyo on two Midare's plus the 3 sen skills.
Kaiten+MS > Meikyo+Yuki > Kasha > Gekko > Kaiten+MS = 3300 potency over 5 GCD's, or 660 PPGCD. Proper BS usage allows a DRK to get about 61% of the PPGCD of the current highest burst window of the highest DPS class in game atm.

Let's look at WAR during Zerk + IR, accounting for 5 GCD's of Fell Cleave.
5xFC under Zerk+IR = 3250 total potency, or 650 PPGCD (it goes without saying that Infuriate is used, obviously). A hair under SAM, but requiring a trio of cooldowns, one of which is two minutes long. I'm pretty certain a DRK could nail the 3x DA+BS combo more frequently than a WAR can use Zerk+IR, so the burst may be lower but the average for DRK is probably a lot smoother over the course of a fight (and less punished by mechanics, since even a single GCD missed by the WAR due to mechanics will cause the loss of an FC.

Reading all this, I suppose it can be summed up to say that proper usage of TBN turns a 10% damage shield into a 400 potency attack. Based on that observation, the average potency gain from Dark Arts seems to be an additional 140 for all GCD skills that utilize it (save PS obviously). If TBN and DA cost the same, then it would seem that using TBN on cooldown is preferanble for DPS, assuming you can guarantee it will break and provide the blood bonus. But even if you're only getting it to break every other time, that's still a gain of 200 potency, which is 60 more than a DA would do for any other GCD skill.

[Shinkyo]

Snip

Yes there are ways to make it a DPS gain under specific condition.
Theorycrafting is what it is and it only gives a general guideline.

[Quor]

Yes there are ways to make it a DPS gain under specific condition.
Theorycrafting is what it is and it only gives a general guideline.

If by "specific condition" you mean "all the time," then yes.

Bloodspiller has a higher potency-per-GCD than any other skill DRK has. It will always be a potency gain. Always. TBN provides what amounts to a "free" BS it pops. TBN costs the same MP as DA. DA on average grants 140 more potency per GCD skill that uses it, while TBN grants a 400 potency GCD skill. 400 > 140. As long as the 50 blood gained from TBN isn't wasted, then it's pure DPS gain over DA.

Bloodspiller is always a potency gain. TBN is always a potency gain, as long as the TBN is popped at least 1 out of every 2 times it is used. Always.

[Tankstuff]

I'm pretty certain a DRK could nail the 3x DA+BS combo more frequently than a WAR can use Zerk+IR, so the burst may be lower but the average for DRK is probably a lot smoother over the course of a fight (and less punished by mechanics, since even a single GCD missed by the WAR due to mechanics will cause the loss of an FC.

I feel like this isnt brought up enough when comparing tank damage, raw damage on a striking dummy is cool and all, but unless you have the entire fight and your cds planned out, its so much harder to hit your potential on war than drk/pld. Even then uncontrollable things like susano stun happens. im actually parsing higher on drk than war in savage on average atm, I would honestly prefer IR get nerfed and the rest of wars kit be buffed up, the tank changes in 4.05 did nothing significant for us in a raid setting

[Shinkyo]

If by "specific condition" you mean "all the time," then yes.

Bloodspiller has a higher potency-per-GCD than any other skill DRK has. It will always be a potency gain. Always. TBN provides what amounts to a "free" BS it pops. TBN costs the same MP as DA. DA on average grants 140 more potency per GCD skill that uses it, while TBN grants a 400 potency GCD skill. 400 > 140. As long as the 50 blood gained from TBN isn't wasted, then it's pure DPS gain over DA.

Bloodspiller is always a potency gain. TBN is always a potency gain, as long as the TBN is popped at least 1 out of ever 2 times it is used. Always.

Nope, nope, nope and nope.
Soul Eater combos is 700 potency, so your average GCD is 233 potency.
DA is a flat 140 potency increase so a DA buffed GCD is 373 potency which in isolation is lower than the 400 potency from TBN+DS for the same MP cost.
BS is a 167 potency over your average GCD while DA is 140 potency.


And this is where the opportunity cost of TBN+BS comes into play...
In order to get that 400 potency now, you have to give up on restored MP from Syphon Strike and Blood gauge from Soul Eater. It's not an issue if you only do it a few times during a fight but it will become relevant in the long run.
Out of grit, it is 1200MP and 10 gauge every for every 3 use of TBN+BS, or 400MP and 3.3 blood gauge per GCD on average.
And because there is a direct conversion of MP and blood gauge into potency (2400MP = 140 potency, 50 gauge = 167), you give up (140/2/3) + (167/5) = 56 potency worth of resource could have been spent later throughout the fight.

In short, TBN+BS is more potency right now but less potency in the long run later in the fight for personal DPS. Of course there is the valid argument that you may allow a healer to fit more DPS ability but really TBN on other people is just a regen tick.

I know this is not going to change your opinion and that's fine.
It's all theorycrafting and its validity in a fight will depend on the encounter.
What's important is the method how you evaluate an ability and realizing that there is always an opportunity cost to every move which may/may not be outweigh by the benefit.

[Quor]

snip

By the Twelve, this again.

Resources exist to be consumed. If you do not have full gauge, sure, then it's better to stick with SE combo (generally speaking). If, however, you are at full gauge, then it's better to use that gauge.

Likewise, you can't compare the "average" potency of an SE combo and say "well here's our PPGCD" because the PPGCD of BS is a pure GAIN compared to that of SE. You need 3 hits total to make SE combo worthwhile, while BS needs one single GCD to do all of it's damage. There is no opportunity cost. You are not losing out on anything any more than a WAR loses out on "beast gauge" by using Fell Cleave. Resources exist to be consumed. On a per GCD basis, BS will always give your potency than any other "potential" action, all things considered. It is not a "loss" to DRK PPGCD. It's a pure gain, and TBN enables even more pure gain when used correctly.

Going further:

Soul Eater combos is 700 potency, so your average GCD is 233 potency.
DA is a flat 140 potency increase so a DA buffed GCD is 373 potency which in isolation is lower than the 400 potency from TBN+DS for the same MP cost.
BS is a 167 potency over your average GCD while DA is 140 potency.

This average GCD stuff needs to stop. It's useful, but only as a general understanding, because you need to look beyond a single combo to understand that there isn't just a flat gain of 233 potency each GCD. Combos work in stages, and higher potency moves are always going to be more valuable than starting a combo over from the baseline (which typically runs at 150 potency).

4 GCD's of just SE combo look like this:
HS (150p) > SS (250p) > SE (300p) > HS (150p) for a total of 850 potency.

4 GCD's of SE + BS at the end looks like this:
HS (150p) > SS (250p) > SE (300p) > BS (400p) for a total of 1100 potency.

Explain to me how this is worse. BS is basically an attack that says "here, have 400 potency instead of what you were going to get." It is and always will be a pure damage increase, unless you're not capped on blood and you plan on unleashing more BS in a shorter time period sometime in the near future. But at that point you're not choosing damage or no damage, you're just delaying the inevitable. BS will always be a damage gain. TBN, if it pops, grants a free BS, which in turn will always be a damage gain over anything else single target that you would use DA on.

Oh, and almost forgot, you can't just add 140 potency from DA to the "average" because Hard Slash doesn't benefit from DA. So you're math is flawed there. DA would only provide 2/3 of 140, or about 93 potency. By your math, that brings the average GCD potency up from 233 to 326 (instead of 373), and your second comparison would be 167 for BS compared to 93 for DA. Of course, this doesn't detract from the central premise being trash, just further evidence that the methodology is inherently flawed.