4.05 - Tank DPS comparison

[Kabooa]

Bloodspiller off the GCD would see a huge decrease in its power.

[Falar]

Bloodspiller off the GCD would see a huge decrease in its power.

Please explain.

[Kabooa]

Please explain.

That's how OGCDs work. They don't force you to make a decision during weighted GCDs. They're balanced primarily by their Cooldowns, sometimes by cost (Such as Aetherflow, the Tank Gauges), and so on.

Bloodspiller will not be an OGCD, 50 gauage, 400/540 - 475/650 potency ability. If we go by the generation of blood being its sole cost, it's going to be significantly weaker. Using the 15 seconds of TBN combined with Soulstealer spam at Base Skill Speed, you're looking at 70 Blood every 15 seconds. This means you get one Bloodspiller approximately every 12 seconds.

A comparable OGCD is the execution shot Archers gain, Misery's end, which is 190 on a 12 second cooldown, with a 20% health requirement. Given that Dark Knight is a tank and not a DPS, with a static +20% damage buff and without the 'execute' prerequisite you're looking at Bloodspiller being closer to 140-150. It may or may not have a Dark Art's cost in this iteration, but the baseline power is going to be significantly lower. It would be allowed to be higher if it had a significant cooldown by comparison.

[Falar]

That's how OGCDs work. They don't force you to make a decision during weighted GCDs. They're balanced primarily by their Cooldowns, sometimes by cost (Such as Aetherflow, the Tank Gauges), and so on.

Bloodspiller will not be an OGCD, 50 gauage, 400/540 - 475/650 potency ability. If we go by the generation of blood being its sole cost, it's going to be significantly weaker. Using the 15 seconds of TBN combined with Soulstealer spam at Base Skill Speed, you're looking at 70 Blood every 15 seconds. This means you get one Bloodspiller approximately every 12 seconds.

A comparable OGCD is the execution shot Archers gain, Misery's end, which is 190 on a 12 second cooldown, with a 20% health requirement.Given that Dark Knight is a tank and not a DPS, with a static +20% damage buff and without the 'execute' prerequisite you're looking at Bloodspiller being closer to 140-150. It may or may not have a Dark Art's cost in this iteration, but the baseline power is going to be significantly lower. It would be allowed to be higher if it had a significant cooldown by comparison.

Ahh, so you're assuming if we want to make it better by taking it oGCD, they would nerf its potency.

We're arguing for removing it from the GCD as an improvement.

Being on the GCD its potency numbers make it look tough, but the opportunity cost of MP and Blackblood gain take away from that "shine" a bit. Therefore, it needs to be oGCD. No one is advocating for a simultaneous nerf.

Due to costing 50 Blackblood, the cooldown is more than adequate. As you said, the cost would be the balance to its use.

[Kabooa]

Ahh, so you're assuming if we want to make it better by taking it oGCD, they would nerf its potency.

We're arguing for removing it from the GCD as an improvement.

Being on the GCD its potency numbers make it look tough, but the opportunity cost of MP and Blackblood gain take away from that "shine" a bit. Therefore, it needs to be oGCD. No one is advocating for a simultaneous nerf.

Due to costing 50 Blackblood, the cooldown is more than adequate.

Except it doesn't have a cooldown. It has a cost. The building of the gauge may act as a pseudo cooldown, but -not- using bloodspiller doesn't lose uses, unless you're already at 100 gauage / shoot over.

Not even in a Summoner's best day, who has the literal highest OGCDs in the game, would it come close to what an OGCD, 'as is' Bloodspiller would do. (Edit: I suppose technically that goes to Samurai's Gurren, but !@#% them, amirite?)

No, it going off the GCD necessitates it being weaker. You don't get to have it both ways, else the warriors are going to come in for a word mate.

[Falar]

Except it doesn't have a cooldown. It has a cost. The building of the gauge may act as a pseudo cooldown, but -not- using bloodspiller doesn't lose uses, unless you're already at 100 gauage / shoot over.

Not even in a Summoner's best day, who has the literal highest OGCDs in the game, would it come close to what an OGCD, 'as is' Bloodspiller would do. (Edit: I suppose technically that goes to Samurai's Gurren, but !@#% them, amirite?)

No, it going off the GCD necessitates it being weaker. You don't get to have it both ways, else the warriors are going to come in for a word mate.

We're talking about what, 4 extra GCDs per minute?

I highly doubt that change would suddenly make us the go-to tank and get WAR tears flowing. It just sucks that being on the GCD we must weight it against our resource generating attacks so it is far weaker than it may appear to a casual observer. I'd like there to be no tradeoffs to using our strongest ST attack, like when it was CnS.

[Quor]

Bloodspiller oGCD

Oh, we understand you want to remove it from the GCd as an improvement to the skill. What Kabooa is saying is that, if that happened, it would require Bloodspiller to be nerfed significantly. Due to the nature of oGCD abilities, if they have a low/no cooldown, they either have a cost that conflicts with other uses in some way (Shinten, Kaiten and Kyuten), have explicit or implicit cooldowns (Guren, Geirskogul, CnS), require certain outside requirements be met (Misery's End, Assassinate) or are a combination of the three (Upheaval, Guren). This provides limiting power on the skill. What you are advocating is to essentially turn Bloodspiller into Shinten. However, there is nothing else meaningful that conflicts with the use of BS, whereas Shinten, while it is SAM's major Kenki dump, the entirety of the SAM rotation revolves around maintaining enough Kenki to utilize Kaiten as needed and Guren when it's off CD. This forces some thought into the use of Shinten, where a good SAM needs to plan Kenki use so to ensure they will have enough Kenki to Guren when it's off CD, or to Kaiten when they need to Midare or refresh Banana.

BS has no such decision making. It's literally a matter of "oh, you have 50 blood? Here's 400+ potency." There's no decision to be made if it's oGCD. You would hit that button with the fist of an angry god pretty much as soon as it would be ready. There's no cost to it like a WAR would have with Upheaval (which also possesses a cooldown) or a SAM would with an ill-timed Guren. Thus, if you're going to take BS off the GCD then you would have to nerf it. Hard.

And as I stated in my previous post, DA+Bloodspiller might be a "loss" in potency over an SE combo now, but that's only under a very specific, functionally impossible premise. It's true in what amounts to a laboratory environment, but as far as real world application goes, it's like all other theorycraft; fun to read, but ultimately not a solid reflection of reality. The reality is that Bloodspiller is at least as powerful/useful as Fell Cleave is on a per-GCD basis, give or take. It has about the same "cost" in terms of build-up and GCD, and whether or not using TBN to get more blood is a good thing will depend on situation at hand, not on the supposedly set-in-stone numbers of an ideal rotation maintained under unrealistic conditions.

[DWolfwood]

It's true in what amounts to a laboratory environment, but as far as real world application goes, it's like all other theorycraft; fun to read, but ultimately not a solid reflection of reality.

Yeah, I mean if you wanna refute factual math and say it's not a "solid reflection of reality", by all means, go on living whatever "reality" you wish.

For the rest of us, it's nice knowing what the changes brought. As the proof showed, TBN can most certainly be converted into terms of DPS. If you're interpreting it as "raid-wide" DPS, then just stop, because I made no comment whatsoever on that matter, and most people already know that there are benefits that will outweigh the penalty.

In no way, shape, or form did I say TBN is useless on another tank, nor did I say it's not worth using. Nor did I say that DPS was in any way the primary function of this ability. It will always be a personal DPS loss while not in Grit, whether you choose to believe it or not.

That being said, being in Grit will change the matter considering that the potency is different, and it's most likely going to exceed the additional opportunity cost of Syphon Strike's 2400MP.

[Quor]

Math Smath and veiled insults

Again, theory. On paper. You have yet to address the primary issue I brought up, which is that the entirety of this math is based around a constantly rolling GCD that has no downtime against a giant wall of HP with no mechanics that just sits there and let's you beat on it. The ultimate Target Dummy in other words.

But more than that, I feel like we're talking about two different things, as you reference TBN then talk about how it will always be a personal DPS loss in Grit, then go on to say that being in Grit will change the matter considering the potency is different? That's quite confusing.

Overall, what I've gleaned from this thread is that some DRK's are making the argument that using TBN in place of DA (since the MP cost is identical) is, somehow, a DPS loss, even assuming that TBN breaks and provides the blood bonus. Now, no argument that it's a loss if it doesn't break, but it's a clear gain if it breaks at least once out of every two uses, since a single DA is 140 potency and a single BS is 400 potency, and one TBN breaking out of every two is a net gain of 200 potency.

Is that incorrect?