How can you continue to ignore monk completely?

[Morzy]

MNK is still as fun, if not more so, than ever to me and I will be raiding with it still.

You are a minority. You are a minority within another minority.

From the looks of it, you haven't even been in the raiding scene, so why are you talking about it? As well as your comment on the forums here. "Raid job: Monk"

Welp, you know how to lose ones respect quite quickly, huh?

[Altena]

I've personally always thought MNK was boring as heck to play, the rotation was braindead and on a basic level - was exceptionally easy to play for a melee.
That's why I chose to never main it, and I only ever jump on it when I feel like mixing things up.
So the job itself already fits into the Stormblood goal of making classes easy to play for the amateur or the elite.

However jobs like DRG got a rather large gameplay nerf from Stormblood in my opinion, and in my eyes that calls for a bigger focus than MNK.
The reason I say this is that MNK has always been easy to play, and fairly uninteresting in my eyes - so if players choose to play that job through ARR & HW, then why be annoyed that it didn't get massive overhauls?

Back to DRG briefly though, the removal of Skogul consuming BotD timer, and removing the RNG-ness of the 4th stage combos (Fang & Wheeling), among other things, simplified that job way too much.

I generally like to avoid the "X job is fine, because Y job has bigger issues" arguments, however I will in this case - because MNK hasn't changed really - and many of those who mained it in HW will probably still enjoy maining it in SB.
DRG however? I know more DRGs that have jumped (no pun intended) ship than any other job, simply because of the gameplay nerfs.

My main point here is probably more along the lines of -
Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

[Morzy]

Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

It did get a gameplay nerf, though, but this depends on how you define "gameplay nerf". If you define it by changed skills, then yeah it did. Arguably our most three important skills; Dragon Kick, Forbidden Chakra, and Demolish were all nerfed, some more than others. Personally how I define gameplay nerf is just exactly that: gameplay. The darn job isn't fun anymore, I'd rather level SAM. Heck the new abilities feel like nerfs compared to what they could be and what Monk needed, NOT what the players that SE thought needed Monk to be easier. I mean heck, our opener got chopped and we now have this gap that we have to try and fill.

I really don't understand how you can say Monk hasn't changed when it's at its lowest point EVER. However, I have noticed a slight trend in this particular opinion among players that don't main Monk or at least haven't in HW to feel this transition.

We lost our INT debuff, one of Monk's only raid utility. We lost Touch of Death, our simple lvl 15 skill that would be useful right about now to ensure we don't clip so much. We lost a stun, reducing Steel Peack to a awkward stationary shoulder tackle that still looks like it ought to be a stun. We lost three seconds of Demolish, We lost some potency on Forbidden Chakra, dramatically reducing the hype that we can effectively spam it with the blessing of RNG. We lost the need for TP without our lovely DoTs, making purification utterly useless - haven't used it once since SB was released, not even when spamming Rockbreaker.

[Altena]

We lost our INT debuff, one of Monk's only raid utility. We lost Touch of Death, our simple lvl 15 skill that would be useful right about now to ensure we don't clip so much. We lost a stun, reducing Steel Peack to a awkward stationary shoulder tackle that still looks like it ought to be a stun. We lost three seconds of Demolish, We lost some potency on Forbidden Chakra, dramatically reducing the hype that we can effectively spam it with the blessing of RNG. We lost the need for TP without our lovely DoTs, making purification utterly useless - haven't used it once since SB was released, not even when spamming Rockbreaker.

Wow all that baby rage.

The job has barely changed when it comes to gameplay. Even the OP flat out stated it.

Monk literally has had ZERO new abilities aside from off gcds, ZERO changes in rotation since 2.0, SE takes away our dot management and slows down the class with a heavy debuff and gives the excuse "in case players are stressed".

The removal of INT debuff isn't gameplay. Does it actually affect the fact that you would be pressing DK in your rotation at all? No it doesn't.
Guess what? DRG lost their version of Steel Peak too.
You lost your long-duration DoT (ToD). Newsflash - so did many other jobs. Is that really a gameplay change? Not in my eyes. Especially considering MNK's DoT was 30 seconds, you lost 1 button that you pressed every 30 seconds. Big freaking whoop.
Demolish reduced by 3 seconds? Wow totally huge gameplay adjustment /facepalm.
No DPS runs into TP issues anymore. You're not alone there.

Look dude, MNK's "gameplay" is almost no different. That was the OP's whole point.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

[Zohnax]

You are a minority. You are a minority within another minority.

That's your opinion and quite frankly, to imply that it's so minor that it shouldn't matter shows your toxicity.

Welp, you know how to lose ones respect quite quickly, huh?

I called you out on your hypocrisy of your statement and this is your response? Yeah... I really don't give a damn about your respect.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow all that baby rage.

The job has barely changed when it comes to gameplay. Even the OP flat out stated it.

Actually it's changed immensely, in a way similar to how Ninja has through the removal of 2nd tier Shadow Fang and Mutilate. You now only have cycles of exactly 3 weaponskills, rather than being able to stretch each cycle from 3 to 5 GCDs. This means that rather than having complete control, within any given GCD, of your clipping, you now have control only within 3 GCDs. Let's put it this way. Previously, you had two tactical filler skills, neither of which were a tremendous DPS bonus over time and therefore could even be delayed for GCD or two to circumvent positional lost, so long as they didn't desync over the fight, available per 18 and 30s. These allowed you to use Demolish not only per 9 or 12 GCDs, where all but set SS levels cause clipping or neglect, but anywhere from 7 to 14 GCDs. More importantly, though, this had a heavy impact on your 15s durations, Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes, which now suffer from 2 GCDs of neglect or must be clipped 2 GCDs short. Certainly, one could just take the compromise on the chin so long as the numbers are still there, but those who were already used to controlling their rotation through the two stance-less skills as never to waste DK/Twin uptime, all without pushing back Demolish, likely will and probably should feel cheated.

I'm curious as to what you consider gameplay. To me, rotational control certainly contributes a large part of that. So does the viability and accessibility of cleave dps (e.g. multi-DoTing). The extension or reduction of (de)buff windows is immensely affective to rotation; I don't know how someone who's played a class windowed by one or more DoTs could fail to see that.

Look dude, MNK's "gameplay" is almost no different. That was the OP's whole point.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

From any perspective but aesthetics, gameplay now is about as similar to ARR Dragoon as it is to ARR Monk. And as Stormblood has since worked almost solely to the effect of devaluing Heavensward Monk tools as they amount to actual choices and button-presses (gameplay rather than mere numbers), it's far from unchanged since then, either.

I get the feeling that you either didn't play much Heavensward Monk or have yet to play it in Stormblood...

I'm not saying the latter is outright horrible, but it has arguably less complexity, and certainly less control, than it did in ARR. (Which actually didn't increase by all that much in Heavensward; it just filled out areas in which we previously had no control or contribution, in an minimalistic but intelligent manner.)

[Jonnycbad]

Their idea behind Stormblood was that you should be able to play any role job without too much consequence.
They also said they wanted to decrease the difference between "casual" players and "elite" players.
I don't see much of this actually implemented with Stormblood at all.

And MNK is like the 2nd best DPS after Samurai, your proposed changes would make them more powerful as a consequence. Monks don't need more power.

[YitharV2]

Greased Lightning is MNKs identity. The developers basically just said we're at the limit of speed and power they want us to go with GL

My interpretation is that GL4 would further the "extreme DPS disparity". I'm fairly certain they could have given us GL4 instead of Riddle of Fire, but the reason they didn't is because it's already punishing to lose GL3. And in my opinion, that's SE's fault for not lowering the CD on PB or giving us a skill to freeze stacks. I don't think that would necessarily make Monk overpowered. What I mean is it should be easier to hold onto stacks, but not necessarily guaranteed you'll never lose them.

Just be happy it didn't get a gameplay nerf like some other jobs out there. It fortunately didn't really change, which means it didn't lose anything - where a number of other jobs did.

If you think MNK is boring now, you should have thought it was boring in HW and ARR too.

I don't quite agree with that. It feels like the dev team focused too much on Samurai and Red Mage. I think every job deserves to get some love.

I do still enjoy MNK for the same reasons I did in late Heavensward. I just don't like how punishing it is. I know Dragoon has it even worse though. It's just Ninja and Samurai have the least problems with phase changes, and somehow that doesn't feel balanced.

[Altena]

Actually it's changed immensely, in a way similar to how Ninja has through the removal of 2nd tier Shadow Fang and Mutilate. You now only have cycles of exactly 3 weaponskills, rather than being able to stretch each cycle from 3 to 5 GCDs. This means that rather than having complete control, within any given GCD, of your clipping, you now have control only within 3 GCDs.

I'm curious as to what you consider gameplay. To me, rotational control certainly contributes part of that.So does the viability and accessibility of cleave dps (e.g. multi-DoTing). The extension or reduction of (de)buff windows is immensely affective to rotation.



From any perspective but aesthetics, gameplay now is about as similar to ARR Dragoon as it is to ARR Monk. And as Stormblood has since worked almost solely to the effect of devaluing Heavensward Monk tools as they amount to actual choices and button-presses (gameplay rather than mere numbers), it's far from unchanged since then, either.

I get the feeling that you either didn't play much Heavensward Monk or have yet to play it in Stormblood...

I'm not saying the latter is outright horrible, but it has arguably less complexity, and certainly less control, than it did in ARR. (Which actually didn't increase by all that much in Heavensward; it just filled out areas in which we previously had no control or contribution, in an minimalistic but intelligent manner.)

Firstly I respect your post a lot more than I respect the baby rager's post before it. Your comments actually read with intelligence.

You're right, I haven't played any of SB's MNK because it has always been the least interesting melee DPS job in my eyes. I did dabble in 3.0 MNK from time to time, but it was indeed a rarity.
My major point here is that the changes in MNK gameplay is insignificant compared to a lot of the jobs that got changed. From a technicality standpoint, sure I will give you that - they recieved some adjustments that slightly decreased their gameplay, however if the belief is that it is anywhere near on the scale as the many other jobs that people are complaining about - I can't agree there.

I do consider rotational control a part of gameplay, however I still don't see how it's immensely different to 2.0 & 3.0 MNK.
You do a couple of less skills? Big whoop. The job has always been extremely rotational and pressing 3 combos repeatedly isn't much different to pressing 5 combos repeatedly.
I mean, do you even notice the "rotation"? Because when it feels like I am just pressing the button that will give me the buff/DoT that's about to fall off.

If the argument is that it hasn't seen gameplay BUFFS since ARR, then I would agree, however I can't actually get on board with you and say that it has changed a whole lot - which would constitute gameplay nerfs.

Just compare the changes to MNK to the changes that DRG saw.
Sure they gained a rage-like stance similar to SMN, however their interplay of actually having to dance around and pay attention with Fang/Wheeling, or the removal of pushing as many skoguls without dropping BotD, paired with their 827398138912638 skill "rotation" (which in my eyes no longer becomes a rotation), down to simple 1-2-3-4-5 combos with a few OGCD weaves when they come off cooldown.. MNK is not even in the competition by this point.
This doesn't even mention that many of the "gameplay nerfs" that MNK recieved, DRG as well.

Again, if your argument is that MNK didn't see many gameplay improvements over the years since ARR, I would agree. However I can't agree that the loss of a few skills and a rather slight adjustment to their very static, short rotation is really a huge enough change to baby rage about (which I notice you're not doing, and can respect).

[Zohnax]

My interpretation is that GL4 would further the "extreme DPS disparity". I'm fairly certain they could have given us GL4 instead of Riddle of Fire, but the reason they didn't is because it's already punishing to lose GL3.

I'd be more willing to wager it's because of an additional full-time 10% damage increase and -5% weaponskill recast. The struggle is maintaining GL and an additional stack of that wouldn't make it any easier to maintain that. If GL fell off a stack at a time, there wouldn't be a problem with maintaining it and Perfect Balance could potentially have some more uses aside from saving it purely for if GL fell off.