The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[HoLoFoNo]

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Lets be realistic: it will be much more feasible for them to take RDM down a peg than to completely fix the other casters. At the same time, in a non competitive game nerfs don't make sense.

So let me change the context. Imagine they buffed every class BUT RDM and NIN. These classes were buffed to the point that now NIN and RDM are like DRG and MCH. Tell me, what would be the tone of these threads instead? Now this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious. In any threads addressing the balance of RDM and SAM, people seem to lose their minds trying to fanatically defend the class. Could you imagine the sort of outrage it would elicit if these classes weren't good relative to the others despite remaining well designed? Probably not from NIN, because unironically these guys are the quietest crowd ever but from RDM, whew.

SAM and RDM classes obviously have a layer of refinement and polish that some of the others don't seem to have. Again, it's not rocket science to figure out why but nevertheless these classes are good relative to the others and that's why that 'Nerf SAM' thread got as popular as it did (at this point though its just people offering their thoughts on the situation with the melee DPS while some SAM mains cry 'don't touch my class').

Anyway the issue with utility is that it contains far more moving parts and the calculations might as well be approximations. Like you can see a samurai doing susano 5 times and doing from 4100 to 4400 dps. This is easily quantifiable and digestible. On the other hand, trying to work out how much damage utility is contributing pretty much isn't possible. You can say something like having a normal balance uptime of 50% is just like a 10% DPS contribution but then you have to adjust for variance that is created when %s are stacked or for crits and Dhits. Even if BRD provides roughly double the raid dps RDM provides, its much easier to see that RDM does 500 more dps than BRD on average.

Do not underestimate the power of your cure and raise. Especially the raise. In an ideal world, you do not want to use these as it gimps you however RDM has the power to actually save runs even if it comes at the cost of their dps. On the other hand BRD cannot do that anymore (Rip LB3 heal). It might be more consistent and also helps the party without needing it to be an emergency but that doesn't mean that the raise and cure isn't good for what it is.

What you say doesn't change the fact that RDM is better than its counterparts in every way. Not only a more refined playstyle but performs better in fights and helps the party more. Hell, I'd say RDM is better than 7/9 in the entire role. There may always be a strongest and weakest but its the low risk, high reward that is bothering me. Ideally the risk should be at least vaguely congruent with the reward. This doesn't only mean ease of use but ease of operation in content that actually matters (basically everything that isn't a dummy).

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Nerfing RDMs damage surely is feasible, but it's the lazy mans way to "fix" things. It's like pulling weeds without getting the roots out, the problem is still underlying and you'll just have to pull the tops off again and again. I'll say it again because for some reason it isn't making it through, but nerfing RDMs output doesn't fix the other classes in any way. DRG and SMN will still have an overly long buildup and lesser utility, BLM will still not have an appropriate skill floor or ceiling. Ease of use should not equal less damage, complexity should increase the ceiling and to some extent the floor of that class not reduce the floor and ceiling of other classes because some people don't want to play Liszt's Campanella on their keyboards. It's a repetitive cycle that doesn't work, oh this class is doing too well in comparison let's nerf it, then that class doesn't get picked, oh no looks like the other classes are doing too well are in comparison let's just nerf them too.

If RDM and SAM have more refined playstyles you should be arguing for more refined playstyles to the other classes, not arguing "NERF THIS IT WORKS BETTER THAN ME WITHOUT GIVING THE PLAYER A HEADACHE"

[HoLoFoNo]

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And what it seems you aren't understanding is that I'm not discussing classes play styles right now, I'm discuss performance. At the end of the day even if these classes aren't perfect ATM, the expansion just released so there is very little hope for a massive overhaul. But not only do these classes play poorly, they also don't perform.

You keep using the argument that the other classes are too difficult to play, that isn't RDMs fault and RDM doing less damage won't fix that. While that might be true, it will also stop players from quitting their jobs to jump on the bandwagon to play the EZmode powerhouse that doesn't care about fight mechanics. At the end of the day, even if DRG and SMN are clunky, if they rewarded the effort appropriately there would be far less complaints about the class. 3.0 DRG wasn't the best to play, and yet complaints were fairly minimal because the class was good. It required skill to get the most out of the class.


Remember: everything is relative. Performance is relative, utility is relative. It is just human nature to be pissed off that they can get ice cream, but you can't. It doesn't necessarily mean that dragging others down is the best course of action no. But even then I provided a hypothetical yet you still decided to harp on the point about other classes sucking to play. As I said, people will find a way to optimize classes even if they require jumping over hurdles if they get rewarded for it, which I think everyone can agree on.

At least, we will see on Tuesday what the dev team think.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

whatever

Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing. You don't seem understand that play style flows (or should flow) directly into performance, how a class plays directly influences its performance overall. Which is why I say and keep saying that nerfing RDM isn't going to make DRG, SMN, MCH etc. more fun to play or give proper returns it's just going to result in a giant circle of pissed off people.

[Misutoraru]

Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing.

i do agree that some class/job being more complex is not other classes/jobs fault, nerfing other jobs/classes will not change a thing
but as a RDM my main caster, i feel RDM could bring down a bit in dmg output
just using the FFlog statistic the top 1%
i believe involving player skill in balance is a very poor choice, but as a reference point i have no choice but use the top 1 percentile in theory, they should be around similar if not equal skill level
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...unt&dataset=99
i do feel RDM should be on around NIN output level, as they both provide more than just personal output but also great team support
BLM is not far behind RDM, but being a caster excel at both single target and AOE, but bring little support to the team they should be slightly higher than RDM and NIN but lower than SAM

in other word, i feel BLM output is about right level might be a very slight boost e.g. blizzard IV and Fire IV back to original potency
what BLM need probably is some change/buff to help ease with mechanics, I personally prefer the old Enochian way more than current one, but there are no point turning back, i believe slight buff on timer/ Mana regen with Umbral Ice would probably make a lot of different on BLM

[Galvuu]

snip

My goodness, I will tirelessly repeat this until the end of time if I must x)
Please. Do not. Use. The 99% percentile.
Please. These are padded runs where "which AST drew more balances at the right time" decides who gets to stay and is bumped down.
Further, there are very few parses on the 99% percentile, so the results have extremely limited statistical validity.

And how are you arguing that "involving player skill in balance is a bad idea" and then grab a bunch of parses which likely feature some of the absolute best players x)?
(And why would it be "slightly" higher than NIN/RDM? The reasons that justify SAM's high personal dps apply to BLM also...)

I feel like NIN always "gets away" in these discussions. This job has a 1.7% raid damage boost (technically more, due to multiplicative stacking of buffs and if TA is timed with openers and stuff), multiple aggro tools (that can further boost the damage of tanks) and the tasty slashing debuff to buff PLD+DRK comps. NIN should be the lowest of all dpsers except maybe BRD (which has slightly more utility), yet somehow it's fine if it's capable of dishing out more personal dps than half of the dps jobs.
SE please give SMN their version of TA. I want more SMNs in my parties. End this NIN monopoly.

[Misutoraru]

My goodness, I will tirelessly repeat this until the end of time if I must x)
Please. Do not. Use. The 99% percentile.
Please. These are padded runs where "which AST drew more balances at the right time" decides who gets to stay and is bumped down.
Further, there are very few parses on the 99% percentile, so the results have extremely limited statistical validity.

using 1 % because i am trying to minimize the skill level difference
if those 1% are being setup, the lower % would have to involve players skill level which is a huge variant that cannot truly reflect jobs efficiency
then we need a better tool that FFlogs

And how are you arguing that "involving player skill in balance is a bad idea" and then grab a bunch of parses which likely feature some of the absolute best players x)?

like the previous answer, I do not want to use FFlogs as a tool for comparing jobs/class effectiveness, but we have no better tool than that at the moment
a job could be complex but do extremely good dmg if use right, and another job can be easy but no matter how good a player are the dmg is low
and using 1%, i m assuming they they equally skilled, thus, pulling almost the best of each class, this should give the most pure data of a jobs, but if those data are padded like you said, the whole FFlog become not very useful, we could use a 5% or even larger, but this would also mean the players skill will starting to skew the data more.

(And why would it be "slightly" higher than NIN/RDM? The reasons that justify SAM's high personal dps apply to BLM also...)

Caster cross role skill have better choice for team support and BLM AOE ability is not something SAM could match, BLM should be between SAM and MNK, despite it is very likely dev would use 8-man raid as a reference, but i prefer the balance not only around Full party raid but also dungeon, trial, and alliance raid

just a general idea how i feel balance should be achieve from, taking away the human factor, assuming all jobs performing at the max efficiency at given mechanics, and taken all the thing each jobs could offer in all type of game play