The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[HappyHubris]

I feel that contribution should be equal irrespective of class difficulty. I gravitate towards tough MMO classes and overcoming the challenge is it's own reward.

That said, I'm pretty miserable in having chosen SMN/SCH for 4.0, as both are clunky and a bit dull. Also, SMN quality of life for solo content has been considerably reduced by having zero pet heals (your coconut doesn't even heal them!).

The focus should be making all classes have a similar damage/utility aggregate ceiling and then focus on improving the enjoyment of each.

[Draxxion]

Just want to add that last I checked, outside of pvp, we are all on the same side. If RDM is doing more damage and performing better that so long as you are not in the top 1% world first static and are still getting invited to your FC/Statics runs then does it really matter if RDM is doing better? I think those of us here in America and Europe take things way to far sometimes. Does not mean there should not be fixes for BLM or SMN, but advocating a nerf to your fellow caster is not only disrespect to those who play said Job, but a disrespect to the programmers and designers who came up with that Job. Advocate fixes for Jobs. Don't advocate nerfs for Jobs that others are finding a lot of fun. Nerfing another job does not fix the issues that your job is having.

[Ferrasper]

Just want to add that last I checked, outside of pvp, we are all on the same side. If RDM is doing more damage and performing better that so long as you are not in the top 1% world first static and are still getting invited to your FC/Statics runs then does it really matter if RDM is doing better? I think those of us here in America and Europe take things way to far sometimes. Does not mean there should not be fixes for BLM or SMN, but advocating a nerf to your fellow caster is not only disrespect to those who play said Job, but a disrespect to the programmers and designers who came up with that Job. Advocate fixes for Jobs. Don't advocate nerfs for Jobs that others are finding a lot of fun. Nerfing another job does not fix the issues that your job is having.

Most of us don't want RDM nerfed. We just want the others brought up to their respective positions.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Is it honestly hard to understand that nerfing RDMs damage output isn't going to fix issues with any other class? It doesn't make them more attractive to play or bring along.

Comparing BRD utilities to RDM. BRD has a 15% DHit increase, a constant 2% Crit buff, AoE TP and MP regen, Instant and preplaceable Esuna, Physical or Magical resistance or an increase to max HP, 20% increase to healing on a target and intermittent 3% damage increase for the entire raid.

Let's see what RDM has, a passable emergency heal and a raise and an averaged out 6% damage increase for 20 seconds. RDM is not pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS, 2/3rds of our utility costs DPS and is higher maintenance than BRD support.

[Draxxion]

Most of us don't want RDM nerfed. We just want the others brought up to their respective positions.

Which is all I was getting at with my post. I want to see BLM and SMN doing well as well. But, be careful when making comparisons as it can come off as advocating for nerfs.

[jamvng]

See I haven't had a problem with BLM losing it's Blizzard/Fire IV because transpose has a short enough cooldown to keep at least 1 shard active. Eventually it will fall off, but you can take measures to prevent it a little bit. Yeah it's work, but I typically can keep it up long enough for Enochian to reset it's cooldown in case I need to start over.

It's still a DPS loss though if you transpose. You'll have to stay in Umbral Ice longer to get enough mana and then cast F3 at practically full cast time.

[Psycofang]

Not sure what you're getting at here, Embolden increases physical damage dealt by party members that receive the buff.

Are you saying that you raid with 6 other players that benefit from an increase in physical damage? (2 tanks, 3 melee/mch/brd, and an auto-attacking healer?)

The RDM gets buffed 1

Both tanks 2

The other 3 dps 3

Thats 6/8

[HoLoFoNo]

.

Lets be realistic: it will be much more feasible for them to take RDM down a peg than to completely fix the other casters. At the same time, in a non competitive game nerfs don't make sense.

So let me change the context. Imagine they buffed every class BUT RDM and NIN. These classes were buffed to the point that now NIN and RDM are like DRG and MCH. Tell me, what would be the tone of these threads instead? Now this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious. In any threads addressing the balance of RDM and SAM, people seem to lose their minds trying to fanatically defend the class. Could you imagine the sort of outrage it would elicit if these classes weren't good relative to the others despite remaining well designed? Probably not from NIN, because unironically these guys are the quietest crowd ever but from RDM, whew.

SAM and RDM classes obviously have a layer of refinement and polish that some of the others don't seem to have. Again, it's not rocket science to figure out why but nevertheless these classes are good relative to the others and that's why that 'Nerf SAM' thread got as popular as it did (at this point though its just people offering their thoughts on the situation with the melee DPS while some SAM mains cry 'don't touch my class').

Anyway the issue with utility is that it contains far more moving parts and the calculations might as well be approximations. Like you can see a samurai doing susano 5 times and doing from 4100 to 4400 dps. This is easily quantifiable and digestible. On the other hand, trying to work out how much damage utility is contributing pretty much isn't possible. You can say something like having a normal balance uptime of 50% is just like a 10% DPS contribution but then you have to adjust for variance that is created when %s are stacked or for crits and Dhits. Even if BRD provides roughly double the raid dps RDM provides, its much easier to see that RDM does 500 more dps than BRD on average.

Do not underestimate the power of your cure and raise. Especially the raise. In an ideal world, you do not want to use these as it gimps you however RDM has the power to actually save runs even if it comes at the cost of their dps. On the other hand BRD cannot do that anymore (Rip LB3 heal). It might be more consistent and also helps the party without needing it to be an emergency but that doesn't mean that the raise and cure isn't good for what it is.

What you say doesn't change the fact that RDM is better than its counterparts in every way. Not only a more refined playstyle but performs better in fights and helps the party more. Hell, I'd say RDM is better than 7/9 in the entire role. There may always be a strongest and weakest but its the low risk, high reward that is bothering me. Ideally the risk should be at least vaguely congruent with the reward. This doesn't only mean ease of use but ease of operation in content that actually matters (basically everything that isn't a dummy).

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Nerfing RDMs damage surely is feasible, but it's the lazy mans way to "fix" things. It's like pulling weeds without getting the roots out, the problem is still underlying and you'll just have to pull the tops off again and again. I'll say it again because for some reason it isn't making it through, but nerfing RDMs output doesn't fix the other classes in any way. DRG and SMN will still have an overly long buildup and lesser utility, BLM will still not have an appropriate skill floor or ceiling. Ease of use should not equal less damage, complexity should increase the ceiling and to some extent the floor of that class not reduce the floor and ceiling of other classes because some people don't want to play Liszt's Campanella on their keyboards. It's a repetitive cycle that doesn't work, oh this class is doing too well in comparison let's nerf it, then that class doesn't get picked, oh no looks like the other classes are doing too well are in comparison let's just nerf them too.

If RDM and SAM have more refined playstyles you should be arguing for more refined playstyles to the other classes, not arguing "NERF THIS IT WORKS BETTER THAN ME WITHOUT GIVING THE PLAYER A HEADACHE"

[Kabooa]

I'd argue Black Mage is as refined as it gets. There's a certain simplicity to being a cannon, and Black Mage is a smooth and natural learning experience.

"Fire means damage, ice means recovery." <= Early levels.

"Transposing is meant as an emergency...ooooh." <= When you get Fire3/Blizz3

"Thunder enables Thundercloud, the single highest potency ability in the game..." <= Until Iaijutsu 3. Jerks.

"Positioning is key." <= Level 50 dungeons and trials

Much like every job, the progression stair leading to what we have now is readily apparent, and Black Mage wasn't changed that much with Stormblood. Black Mage is as refined as it gets. The issue is that currently the top of that stepping stone sees only very minor rewards to the rung that came before. In this regard, the 'lazy man' approach of simply tweaking numbers is an appropriate response.

I'd prefer something more interesting, but more interesting is usually what occurs at expansions so...