The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[HoLoFoNo]

Is it honestly hard to understand that RDM is indeed too good at the moment? Not because of how 'simple' it is but because of how flexible it is. No, I don't think a class should be nerfed because it doesn't cause headaches, but I do think a class should be nerfed if you can not only play it with just your forehead but it is also consistently the 2nd most well performing class in fights and also can help the party out.

I think that RDM should retain verraise and vercure because well, its a RDM. It should also keep embolden (preferably make it damage instead of just phys damage). However, I think RDM should lose about 200-300 DPS. For a class so unaffected by the shenanigans that cause other dps to lose dps in fights, it sure can do a lot of damage. RDM is pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS. This is the issue. It may not provide as much utility as BRD but it is just as flexible in a fight situation. God knows why they made RDMs ceiling pretty much equal to that of MNK/NIN/SMN because it is much more easy to operate in general and within a fight situation and it has far better utility than 2 of them. Could you imagine if BRD was always about 10% stronger than it always has been? It would be 2.0 all over again. I don't think anyone here thinks that BRD should get a 10% damage increase but don't see the irony in thinking that RDM is completely fine as it is.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

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Is it honestly hard to understand that nerfing RDMs damage output isn't going to fix issues with any other class? It doesn't make them more attractive to play or bring along.

Comparing BRD utilities to RDM. BRD has a 15% DHit increase, a constant 2% Crit buff, AoE TP and MP regen, Instant and preplaceable Esuna, Physical or Magical resistance or an increase to max HP, 20% increase to healing on a target and intermittent 3% damage increase for the entire raid.

Let's see what RDM has, a passable emergency heal and a raise and an averaged out 6% damage increase for 20 seconds. RDM is not pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS, 2/3rds of our utility costs DPS and is higher maintenance than BRD support.

[HoLoFoNo]

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Lets be realistic: it will be much more feasible for them to take RDM down a peg than to completely fix the other casters. At the same time, in a non competitive game nerfs don't make sense.

So let me change the context. Imagine they buffed every class BUT RDM and NIN. These classes were buffed to the point that now NIN and RDM are like DRG and MCH. Tell me, what would be the tone of these threads instead? Now this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious. In any threads addressing the balance of RDM and SAM, people seem to lose their minds trying to fanatically defend the class. Could you imagine the sort of outrage it would elicit if these classes weren't good relative to the others despite remaining well designed? Probably not from NIN, because unironically these guys are the quietest crowd ever but from RDM, whew.

SAM and RDM classes obviously have a layer of refinement and polish that some of the others don't seem to have. Again, it's not rocket science to figure out why but nevertheless these classes are good relative to the others and that's why that 'Nerf SAM' thread got as popular as it did (at this point though its just people offering their thoughts on the situation with the melee DPS while some SAM mains cry 'don't touch my class').

Anyway the issue with utility is that it contains far more moving parts and the calculations might as well be approximations. Like you can see a samurai doing susano 5 times and doing from 4100 to 4400 dps. This is easily quantifiable and digestible. On the other hand, trying to work out how much damage utility is contributing pretty much isn't possible. You can say something like having a normal balance uptime of 50% is just like a 10% DPS contribution but then you have to adjust for variance that is created when %s are stacked or for crits and Dhits. Even if BRD provides roughly double the raid dps RDM provides, its much easier to see that RDM does 500 more dps than BRD on average.

Do not underestimate the power of your cure and raise. Especially the raise. In an ideal world, you do not want to use these as it gimps you however RDM has the power to actually save runs even if it comes at the cost of their dps. On the other hand BRD cannot do that anymore (Rip LB3 heal). It might be more consistent and also helps the party without needing it to be an emergency but that doesn't mean that the raise and cure isn't good for what it is.

What you say doesn't change the fact that RDM is better than its counterparts in every way. Not only a more refined playstyle but performs better in fights and helps the party more. Hell, I'd say RDM is better than 7/9 in the entire role. There may always be a strongest and weakest but its the low risk, high reward that is bothering me. Ideally the risk should be at least vaguely congruent with the reward. This doesn't only mean ease of use but ease of operation in content that actually matters (basically everything that isn't a dummy).

[PrismaticDaybreak]

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Nerfing RDMs damage surely is feasible, but it's the lazy mans way to "fix" things. It's like pulling weeds without getting the roots out, the problem is still underlying and you'll just have to pull the tops off again and again. I'll say it again because for some reason it isn't making it through, but nerfing RDMs output doesn't fix the other classes in any way. DRG and SMN will still have an overly long buildup and lesser utility, BLM will still not have an appropriate skill floor or ceiling. Ease of use should not equal less damage, complexity should increase the ceiling and to some extent the floor of that class not reduce the floor and ceiling of other classes because some people don't want to play Liszt's Campanella on their keyboards. It's a repetitive cycle that doesn't work, oh this class is doing too well in comparison let's nerf it, then that class doesn't get picked, oh no looks like the other classes are doing too well are in comparison let's just nerf them too.

If RDM and SAM have more refined playstyles you should be arguing for more refined playstyles to the other classes, not arguing "NERF THIS IT WORKS BETTER THAN ME WITHOUT GIVING THE PLAYER A HEADACHE"

[HoLoFoNo]

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And what it seems you aren't understanding is that I'm not discussing classes play styles right now, I'm discuss performance. At the end of the day even if these classes aren't perfect ATM, the expansion just released so there is very little hope for a massive overhaul. But not only do these classes play poorly, they also don't perform.

You keep using the argument that the other classes are too difficult to play, that isn't RDMs fault and RDM doing less damage won't fix that. While that might be true, it will also stop players from quitting their jobs to jump on the bandwagon to play the EZmode powerhouse that doesn't care about fight mechanics. At the end of the day, even if DRG and SMN are clunky, if they rewarded the effort appropriately there would be far less complaints about the class. 3.0 DRG wasn't the best to play, and yet complaints were fairly minimal because the class was good. It required skill to get the most out of the class.


Remember: everything is relative. Performance is relative, utility is relative. It is just human nature to be pissed off that they can get ice cream, but you can't. It doesn't necessarily mean that dragging others down is the best course of action no. But even then I provided a hypothetical yet you still decided to harp on the point about other classes sucking to play. As I said, people will find a way to optimize classes even if they require jumping over hurdles if they get rewarded for it, which I think everyone can agree on.

At least, we will see on Tuesday what the dev team think.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

whatever

Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing. You don't seem understand that play style flows (or should flow) directly into performance, how a class plays directly influences its performance overall. Which is why I say and keep saying that nerfing RDM isn't going to make DRG, SMN, MCH etc. more fun to play or give proper returns it's just going to result in a giant circle of pissed off people.

[Misutoraru]

Then make it so everyone can get the ice cream, don't just take it away from other people or make it more expensive for the people that already have it. I've already said this exact thing.

i do agree that some class/job being more complex is not other classes/jobs fault, nerfing other jobs/classes will not change a thing
but as a RDM my main caster, i feel RDM could bring down a bit in dmg output
just using the FFlog statistic the top 1%
i believe involving player skill in balance is a very poor choice, but as a reference point i have no choice but use the top 1 percentile in theory, they should be around similar if not equal skill level
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...unt&dataset=99
i do feel RDM should be on around NIN output level, as they both provide more than just personal output but also great team support
BLM is not far behind RDM, but being a caster excel at both single target and AOE, but bring little support to the team they should be slightly higher than RDM and NIN but lower than SAM

in other word, i feel BLM output is about right level might be a very slight boost e.g. blizzard IV and Fire IV back to original potency
what BLM need probably is some change/buff to help ease with mechanics, I personally prefer the old Enochian way more than current one, but there are no point turning back, i believe slight buff on timer/ Mana regen with Umbral Ice would probably make a lot of different on BLM