The state of DPS and why I both love and hate RDM

[Draxxion]

I know a lot of people are not a fan of how easy the job is and how it doesn't pimunish you for making mistakes, but that to me means they got work to do on the other jobs. They were able to design RDM and SAM from the ground up and had a totally different as well as effective design philosophy with them that they should be easy to pick up and the abilities should be easy to understand. This is something they are trying to do with the other jobs, but are stuck having to keep them functioning similar to the way they have or end up alienating those who have played said job. As such RDM and SAM being brand new get to be the gold standards of this new design philosophy and the other jobs end up feeling clunky by comparison.

[jamvng]

I don't have a problem with it being "easy"/"simple". That's fine; some jobs can be more complex and some can be easier. I don't think balance should necessarily be done with simplicity as a factor. Being easy just means the skill ceiling is lower than other classes and it'll be easier to play the class at a high level.

The problem I feel is that even at the top level, where everyone is playing each class at near max capability, RDM is just better than the other two casters. They do more damage in fights while having more utility & mobility. They're also the DPS with the least punishment. DPS should be balanced (as Yoshi himself brought up) partly by their susceptibility to mechanics. Being less punishing, RDM DPS is much less effected by mechanics than BLM or SMN. BLM can lose Astral Fire/Enochian/Foul stack from moving for more than a second, or lose a Fire IV; positioning to maximize casts is necessary. SMN needs to optimize all their CDs and Bahamuts to each fight differently.

[Crewman]

BLM can lose Astral Fire/Enochian/Foul stack from moving for more than a second, or lose a Fire IV; positioning to maximize casts is necessary.

See I haven't had a problem with BLM losing it's Blizzard/Fire IV because transpose has a short enough cooldown to keep at least 1 shard active. Eventually it will fall off, but you can take measures to prevent it a little bit. Yeah it's work, but I typically can keep it up long enough for Enochian to reset it's cooldown in case I need to start over.

[jamvng]

See I haven't had a problem with BLM losing it's Blizzard/Fire IV because transpose has a short enough cooldown to keep at least 1 shard active. Eventually it will fall off, but you can take measures to prevent it a little bit. Yeah it's work, but I typically can keep it up long enough for Enochian to reset it's cooldown in case I need to start over.

It's still a DPS loss though if you transpose. You'll have to stay in Umbral Ice longer to get enough mana and then cast F3 at practically full cast time.

[Crewman]

It's still a DPS loss though if you transpose. You'll have to stay in Umbral Ice longer to get enough mana and then cast F3 at practically full cast time.

You are right it is. It's a timing game for me really. As long as I have swiftcast ready to instantly regain my 3 shards with Fire 3 I will be okay, without that there is a small drop off. if you really screw that up it's even worse.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

The stupidest argument is how RDM needs to be nerfed because playing it doesn't cause a migraine, there's no point in saying "Hey that person over there shouldn't be physically fit because they run on a treadmill instead of free running and jumping on rooftops." A lot of the people arguing for nerfs on that point need to recognize that making RDM less rewarding for less effort isn't going to make the other jobs more rewarding for more effort, you need to be arguing for mechanical changes.

[Tsumdere]

-snip-

This. RDM is excellent design. It's easy, fun to play, smooth, and rewarding.
BLM could use some fine tuning as I think it's close to what it should be. Tweak some numbers to beat both SMN and RDM and you've got yourself your big damage, no utility turret. SMN, on the other hand, sucks to play and is a mess. It's bottom of the barrel for caster DPS and the most difficult to play. Unfortunately, nerfing RDM and/or buffing SMN isn't going to magically make SMN fun. It's the antithesis of RDM - unfun, clunky, and unreliable, and will be until they rework it a la BRD. (Please look forward to it?)

Difficulty shouldn't mean you have to break off your fingers to achieve *average* (or below average) numbers. Difficulty should come from optomizing it. Most of all, difficulty should be rewarded and none of the "difficult" classes are.

[HoLoFoNo]

Is it honestly hard to understand that RDM is indeed too good at the moment? Not because of how 'simple' it is but because of how flexible it is. No, I don't think a class should be nerfed because it doesn't cause headaches, but I do think a class should be nerfed if you can not only play it with just your forehead but it is also consistently the 2nd most well performing class in fights and also can help the party out.

I think that RDM should retain verraise and vercure because well, its a RDM. It should also keep embolden (preferably make it damage instead of just phys damage). However, I think RDM should lose about 200-300 DPS. For a class so unaffected by the shenanigans that cause other dps to lose dps in fights, it sure can do a lot of damage. RDM is pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS. This is the issue. It may not provide as much utility as BRD but it is just as flexible in a fight situation. God knows why they made RDMs ceiling pretty much equal to that of MNK/NIN/SMN because it is much more easy to operate in general and within a fight situation and it has far better utility than 2 of them. Could you imagine if BRD was always about 10% stronger than it always has been? It would be 2.0 all over again. I don't think anyone here thinks that BRD should get a 10% damage increase but don't see the irony in thinking that RDM is completely fine as it is.

[PrismaticDaybreak]

snip

Is it honestly hard to understand that nerfing RDMs damage output isn't going to fix issues with any other class? It doesn't make them more attractive to play or bring along.

Comparing BRD utilities to RDM. BRD has a 15% DHit increase, a constant 2% Crit buff, AoE TP and MP regen, Instant and preplaceable Esuna, Physical or Magical resistance or an increase to max HP, 20% increase to healing on a target and intermittent 3% damage increase for the entire raid.

Let's see what RDM has, a passable emergency heal and a raise and an averaged out 6% damage increase for 20 seconds. RDM is not pretty much BRD but with 500 extra DPS, 2/3rds of our utility costs DPS and is higher maintenance than BRD support.

[HoLoFoNo]

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Lets be realistic: it will be much more feasible for them to take RDM down a peg than to completely fix the other casters. At the same time, in a non competitive game nerfs don't make sense.

So let me change the context. Imagine they buffed every class BUT RDM and NIN. These classes were buffed to the point that now NIN and RDM are like DRG and MCH. Tell me, what would be the tone of these threads instead? Now this is a rhetorical question, because the answer is obvious. In any threads addressing the balance of RDM and SAM, people seem to lose their minds trying to fanatically defend the class. Could you imagine the sort of outrage it would elicit if these classes weren't good relative to the others despite remaining well designed? Probably not from NIN, because unironically these guys are the quietest crowd ever but from RDM, whew.

SAM and RDM classes obviously have a layer of refinement and polish that some of the others don't seem to have. Again, it's not rocket science to figure out why but nevertheless these classes are good relative to the others and that's why that 'Nerf SAM' thread got as popular as it did (at this point though its just people offering their thoughts on the situation with the melee DPS while some SAM mains cry 'don't touch my class').

Anyway the issue with utility is that it contains far more moving parts and the calculations might as well be approximations. Like you can see a samurai doing susano 5 times and doing from 4100 to 4400 dps. This is easily quantifiable and digestible. On the other hand, trying to work out how much damage utility is contributing pretty much isn't possible. You can say something like having a normal balance uptime of 50% is just like a 10% DPS contribution but then you have to adjust for variance that is created when %s are stacked or for crits and Dhits. Even if BRD provides roughly double the raid dps RDM provides, its much easier to see that RDM does 500 more dps than BRD on average.

Do not underestimate the power of your cure and raise. Especially the raise. In an ideal world, you do not want to use these as it gimps you however RDM has the power to actually save runs even if it comes at the cost of their dps. On the other hand BRD cannot do that anymore (Rip LB3 heal). It might be more consistent and also helps the party without needing it to be an emergency but that doesn't mean that the raise and cure isn't good for what it is.

What you say doesn't change the fact that RDM is better than its counterparts in every way. Not only a more refined playstyle but performs better in fights and helps the party more. Hell, I'd say RDM is better than 7/9 in the entire role. There may always be a strongest and weakest but its the low risk, high reward that is bothering me. Ideally the risk should be at least vaguely congruent with the reward. This doesn't only mean ease of use but ease of operation in content that actually matters (basically everything that isn't a dummy).