Why HP inflation is a valid concern

[Kitfox]

? Does not ilvl increases only "screw" up the old stuff? And with regards to level sync content... they just did that. With most of the DPS getting potency increases and this little thing called direct hit pre 61 stuff dies faster then ever. They really could care less about how it impacts old stuff.

Yeah, they obviously don't care at all. They especially did not increase tank enmity because everyone and their mom complained about tank enmity at low levels, except they did. I guess it's up to interpretation what that means.

[Rhinos]

From a development perspective (ignoring the accessories stats issues), balancing HP and Atk independently is objectively simpler when Vit is separate from Str in the damage formula. The real issue is gear stats were not adjusted to match the new formula. As long as tank accessories only give Vit(and non-tanks get zero vit), tanks will essentially have HP inflation and Atk deflation relative to non-tank roles with each increase in ilvl.

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

[ADVSS]

its so they can curb tank damage. The loss of damage from mixing vit-str was roughly brought back, eventually 70 ilevels higher, the end of HW,
Noe once again they go back to strength, but force vit only accessories, dropping attack power another huge amount. (another 30%?) If hp inflation was really the reason, we wouldnt be seeing dps with 30k hp. That inflation was caused by the nature of increasing vit in a fairly static increment on gear across the board. I mean, scaling ap to any stat doesnt matter, as long as it stays scaled along with the ap stat/main of the other jobs This means you never have to change or adjust the enmity modifiers, because they increase along with the other jobs. It all comes down to, that isnt just enough. Then they cant bork the damage numbers if they get too high, even if theyre perfectly relative to the other jobs.

Pretty sure they want tanks to deal 600-700 dps and no more. If there was just some way they could make it permanent....


Tamks just tend to get more VIT, even on their accessories than other jobs get their main stat, so scaling AP to that just means their AP will creep higher and higher little by little.

They could surprise us though, and literally mean that, meaning they plan to put only +2 vit per 10 ilevels, thats totally not happening though and you all know this.

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

If this already wasnt the majority of fights we run in to, but this is pretty much how it works already.
They have more on their hands to worry about than tank damage, if theyre trying to change balance this much. This requires scaling down healers healing potency, reducing or flat out removing cooldowns on tanks and or tank stance altogether.

As it stands being a tank means you can survive TWO hits, while dps just melt. (oj a bit of an overexxageration,but still)

[Rhinos]

If the intent for cutting str really was purely to nerf tank damage, SE did it in the entirely wrong way. If they want to lower tank damage, fine, but that should be done by altering the potencies of their moves, which would at least avoid this wonky atk scaling issue we have now.

If this already wasnt the majority of fights we run in to, but this is pretty much how it works already.
They have more on their hands to worry about than tank damage, if theyre trying to change balance this much. This requires scaling down healers healing potency, reducing or flat out removing cooldowns on tanks and or tank stance altogether.

As it stands being a tank means you can survive TWO hits, while dps just melt. (oj a bit of an overexxageration,but still)

This only reinforces my point - tank HP has already inflated since 2.0 and will continue to with tank gear as it is. Even if it's not severe enough to be considered a problem right now, it eventually will be if tank gear is not adjusted. Removing Vit from the damage formula makes it easier to adjust HP values from future gear if needed.

[mcspamm]

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

At that point, they would be better served by making raid damage percentage based to keep it relevant (e.g. deals 50% of each player's max health in damage), although that could introduce a whole new can of worms (especially with the spaghetti code they're dealing with).

Not sure how I would feel about that, but we can cross that bridge if/when we get there.

[TankHunter678]

This only reinforces my point - tank HP has already inflated since 2.0 and will continue to with tank gear as it is. Even if it's not severe enough to be considered a problem right now, it eventually will be if tank gear is not adjusted. Removing Vit from the damage formula makes it easier to adjust HP values from future gear if needed.

Considering that any smart coder would put it so that they can adjust the stat weight of the affects of a given stat there is no way that removing vit from the damage formula makes it easier to adjust HP values. As they could adjust future tank armor VIT values for HP and then nudge the AP gain from vit for damage without affecting the HP gain at all. That is the point of adding extra child modifier slots.

Hell, in the Company of Heroes series a given weapon actually had a long list of child modifiers that altered how the weapon performed at a given range in terms of damage and accuracy based the target type, armor type, and facing, as well as influencing the critical event rate, what critical event was to occur, etc. Allowing weapons to be easily tuned to be buffed against particular targets.

Here they could have reduced the stat growth on armor pieces and bumped up the AP modifier for damage without HP gain being affected by anything other then average ilvl and how much raw stat.

[GunnarBerwerf]

Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

But Rhinos talking about HP purely, is that not how the game have always been? I dont remember any time in the game story , that the tank gear have ever had str on accessories, ever (talking about end game stuff). It was always VIT, and this "problem" was never a problem. And tanks always had more HP than non tanks, the proportion was never more than 2xish the average dps hp for warrior and 1.5xish for paladin and drk with everyone at the same ilv. Another thing is that the vit and str are capped by ilvs, unless the scaling code have been changed this time around, which we can only suppose since no one here have access to the source code, this should not be an issue taking into account the last 4 years of game.

PVE wise the risk for the tanks have never been normal AOE mechanics, its always tank busters, and they had always been only targeted to tanks and so can be tuned properly to kill a tank no matter how much hp he have , it was always normal to normal AOE mechanics to not tickle tanks, and just be real threat to dps and healers.

PVP in the other hand if they did not change it this time around how they did, a whole other system separate from PVE , yes it could be a problem, but even that problem they took out of the equation with the streamline of pvp

I take my static for example, myself as a warrior in defiance have almost 62k HP while dps have 33-34k HP , the paladin have 48-49k , which have been that proportion i told about, and that proportion consistently do not change trough the tiers of content.

If they put the system back for vit giving str, the proportion of increasing hp should not be a problem because it would not change as it is , it would only add ap, which again should be able to be changed in a formula if things get out of hand or they would need a nerf.

All this "half-truth" SE tells about the HP inflation is because of the weakness effect that they changed, to reduce main dps/heal stats and not HP stat , which is *ding ding * VIT... and without messing with vit the tanks would not lose any AP when dyeing it would be a game breaking bug, like die to remove debuffs, get back up , and continue. The root of this whole problem lies in the change to weakness, they should have changed it to a flat -25% damage/heal , instead of -25% main stat.

But again, please if im wrong in thinking what i think, please point out the error in my reasoning.

[Waliel]

Because if VIT increases both AP and HP, you can't increase/decrease one without affecting the other. If you want to change AP but retain the same eHP, you would need to alter incoming damage to match the HP change, otherwise tanks would have relatively inflated HP on AP increase and deflated HP on AP decrease. Now, if you alter incoming damage, you also have to adjust tank def/mdef or VIT (def/mdef) for all other classes, because raid AoEs hit everyone, not just tanks, unless you don't care how much they hit tanks for. For any AoE mechanics that are preceded or followed by tank busters, you probably would care.

Alternatively you could adjust VIT:AP multiplier every time you want to make a change, which would affect the whole level range, unless they have level specific modifiers for the value. That could possibly break old content tuning, which you might or might not care about. Old players probably wouldn't, new players might.

You'd change the multiplier. The AP difference for low levels would be minimal, if the majority of your AP still came from STR, like I suggested, but you'd have some form of scaling from the right side as well. Now if you tried to change AP by changing the amount of VIT itself, you'd have to start messing with item budgets and how much HP VIT gives to tanks and tanks only. Even now raid AoE only tickles tanks and isn't meant to kill them, so that's irrelevant. I'd be totally fine with Squenix adding some STR to accessories itself, but adding a few points of VIT to low level gear to give tanks their 5 AP back is a much smaller amount of item changes. Just do something to have some scaling from accessories. Wild idea: increase AP gain from STR to 1.25x so you don't have to mess with the right side at all.

The bigger issue I have with this is their sorry excuse of "HP inflation". Now if Squenix just said they did this to lower the tank damage I'd be totally cool with it, but what they gave us just really rubs me the wrong way.

[DPZ2]

They need a test server.

Depends on what you mean by "test server". In WoW, "test server" means a way to spoil future storyline for everyone months in advance.

[SpookyGhost]

Just gonna be real for a second: The big, actual problem is that STR isn't on Fending accessories by default. No matter what calculation they run for stats, it still means that in order to fully benefit you need to meld those primary stats onto your accessories. No other job has to do this, everyone else is free to meld secondary stats (which have a much lower weight). This really isn't fair and hasn't been fair since forever. They need to add STR to Fending accessories and then whatever calculation they do with VIT and STR from there doesn't really matter because we'll always want Fending accessories and they'll freely be able to adjust any of the values on them.