Why HP inflation is a valid concern

[Exiled_Tonberry]

You mean like SE changed our AP Scaling back to STR which totally did not screw with low level tanks aggro?
Sorry but SE doesnt plan so far ahead. They just change/tweak some stuff and hope it works

^This. If SE displayed anything through HW in abundance, it's a heavy lack of foresight. And I see the trend is still continuing.
Anyone could have seen the lower tank AP and the higher DPS output from DPS roles would cause aggro issues, but no one said anything because it's so obvious that we just assumed SE knew to adjust enmity values.

But apparently not, looking at the opening weeks of SB...
This a common thing with them. Maybe it's because their team is so small that things like this are overlooked. They need a bigger team, or outside help.

[GunnarBerwerf]

That is a problem that you dont fix with the values on the items, its a problem you fix with the formula, if they decide we do too much dmg, they nerf the proportion on the formula, not the value on the item, its simple as changing a number in a formula used by ALL the items in the game, unless they screwed that up and put that formula directly into the item, which i highly believe is not the case ... its as simple as changing that calculating formula from 0.45/0.45 to 0.45/0.25 or something... really. Its simple, the "inflation" do not make sense, because if the formula is split, u can just nerf the AP side of the attack power on what vit gives and not change the HP side of the formula that vit gives.

All the inflation comes as a problem when you treat the problem as a tied number that as the same time it increases HP it increases AP , but they are 2 different status that come from the same stat (vit) and somewhere in the code there is a formula that have a value that how much vit increases HP and how much vit would increase AP , two separate numbers, that increases specific things, it would just be balancing that numbers, they can change how much vit gives ap without messing how much vit gives HP ... unless again, there is a fundamental flaw in their code that they are not able to do it, and that is wrong, and lazy coding.

[Baci]

They need a test server.

That right here. Be it a public or a private test server. They need more Information from the outside

[Reynhart]

Say that they give us back the old 0.45/0.45 formula for our attack power. It feels good for awhile. Then they decide that we're doing too much damage. How do you tone it down?

This is not HP inflation, but AP inflation.

The same in reverse. If we're not doing enough and they want to boost us? Increase the vit gain on accs, but now that gives us more HP than what they balanced making the raid/damage values on.

They can reduce the scaling of AP on our VIT.

Now, the same question as your second one, but with the current situation. They decide we're not doing enough damage with our only accessories option being VIT. How will they fix that ?

[Sarcatica]

From HP inflation to AP inflation, really? This thing has been around since 2.0 and all I can think is SE just wants to limit tanks' DPS. What do you mean by AP inflation? You can suddenly get more AP off melding str or vit? Tanks have been the only role to actively meld STR into crafted (2.x to 3.1)/ 3.2+ accesories. Like why? Other main stats melds are useless, so why are tanks so exclusive that you can't have more STR into your accessories which is our main stat? Get it? SE clearly wants to tone down our damage. Why can't SE say that instead of HP inflation (really SE?)?

[Exiled_Tonberry]

SE clearly wants to tone down our damage. Why can't SE say that instead of HP inflation (really SE?)?

SE is horrifically scared of nerfing anything. They'd rather have something stay broken and unbalanced rather than give it a much needed nerf, and instead they'll tone them down under the guise of job changes between expansions.

This is why Balance is still 20% even though that's absolutely too strong. That's why if they feel tanks ever do too much damage, instead of making it simple and giving them less stats on their accessories or just straight weapon damage nerfs, they'll do this huge workaround and give them Tenacity, or change the way a stat scales just for them, just so they can nerf it without it looking like a nerf.

SE really needs to grow a pair, to be blunt.

[Rhinos]

From a development perspective (ignoring the accessories stats issues), balancing HP and Atk independently is objectively simpler when Vit is separate from Str in the damage formula. The real issue is gear stats were not adjusted to match the new formula. As long as tank accessories only give Vit(and non-tanks get zero vit), tanks will essentially have HP inflation and Atk deflation relative to non-tank roles with each increase in ilvl.

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

[mcspamm]

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

At that point, they would be better served by making raid damage percentage based to keep it relevant (e.g. deals 50% of each player's max health in damage), although that could introduce a whole new can of worms (especially with the spaghetti code they're dealing with).

Not sure how I would feel about that, but we can cross that bridge if/when we get there.

[GunnarBerwerf]

Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

But Rhinos talking about HP purely, is that not how the game have always been? I dont remember any time in the game story , that the tank gear have ever had str on accessories, ever (talking about end game stuff). It was always VIT, and this "problem" was never a problem. And tanks always had more HP than non tanks, the proportion was never more than 2xish the average dps hp for warrior and 1.5xish for paladin and drk with everyone at the same ilv. Another thing is that the vit and str are capped by ilvs, unless the scaling code have been changed this time around, which we can only suppose since no one here have access to the source code, this should not be an issue taking into account the last 4 years of game.

PVE wise the risk for the tanks have never been normal AOE mechanics, its always tank busters, and they had always been only targeted to tanks and so can be tuned properly to kill a tank no matter how much hp he have , it was always normal to normal AOE mechanics to not tickle tanks, and just be real threat to dps and healers.

PVP in the other hand if they did not change it this time around how they did, a whole other system separate from PVE , yes it could be a problem, but even that problem they took out of the equation with the streamline of pvp

I take my static for example, myself as a warrior in defiance have almost 62k HP while dps have 33-34k HP , the paladin have 48-49k , which have been that proportion i told about, and that proportion consistently do not change trough the tiers of content.

If they put the system back for vit giving str, the proportion of increasing hp should not be a problem because it would not change as it is , it would only add ap, which again should be able to be changed in a formula if things get out of hand or they would need a nerf.

All this "half-truth" SE tells about the HP inflation is because of the weakness effect that they changed, to reduce main dps/heal stats and not HP stat , which is *ding ding * VIT... and without messing with vit the tanks would not lose any AP when dyeing it would be a game breaking bug, like die to remove debuffs, get back up , and continue. The root of this whole problem lies in the change to weakness, they should have changed it to a flat -25% damage/heal , instead of -25% main stat.

But again, please if im wrong in thinking what i think, please point out the error in my reasoning.

[ADVSS]

its so they can curb tank damage. The loss of damage from mixing vit-str was roughly brought back, eventually 70 ilevels higher, the end of HW,
Noe once again they go back to strength, but force vit only accessories, dropping attack power another huge amount. (another 30%?) If hp inflation was really the reason, we wouldnt be seeing dps with 30k hp. That inflation was caused by the nature of increasing vit in a fairly static increment on gear across the board. I mean, scaling ap to any stat doesnt matter, as long as it stays scaled along with the ap stat/main of the other jobs This means you never have to change or adjust the enmity modifiers, because they increase along with the other jobs. It all comes down to, that isnt just enough. Then they cant bork the damage numbers if they get too high, even if theyre perfectly relative to the other jobs.

Pretty sure they want tanks to deal 600-700 dps and no more. If there was just some way they could make it permanent....


Tamks just tend to get more VIT, even on their accessories than other jobs get their main stat, so scaling AP to that just means their AP will creep higher and higher little by little.

They could surprise us though, and literally mean that, meaning they plan to put only +2 vit per 10 ilevels, thats totally not happening though and you all know this.

Tank HP inflation is a valid issue, but less for tanks and more so for non-tanks. Similar to tank str scaling issue, the hp of dps/healers relative to tanks will decrease each new ilvl tier. If the HP disparity becomes too extreme it could lead to issues where non-tanks are so frail they can barely survive a single auto attack if they pull aggro, because the damage is tuned for tank HP. Inversely, tanks could become so bulky that raid damage tuned for non-tanks is so low that tanks could ignore many mechanics.

If this already wasnt the majority of fights we run in to, but this is pretty much how it works already.
They have more on their hands to worry about than tank damage, if theyre trying to change balance this much. This requires scaling down healers healing potency, reducing or flat out removing cooldowns on tanks and or tank stance altogether.

As it stands being a tank means you can survive TWO hits, while dps just melt. (oj a bit of an overexxageration,but still)