Why HP inflation is a valid concern

[BlackironTarkus]

So this was answered in the 'doesn't make sense' post but I'll post it here so the word gets out.

HP inflation from player equipment and our choices doesn't exist, no.

HP inflation from SE deciding how much VIT to give the next tier of accessories does exist.

Say that they give us back the old 0.45/0.45 formula for our attack power. It feels good for awhile. Then they decide that we're doing too much damage. How do you tone it down?

Easy answer is lower the amount of stat gain on the next tier of items. But if this is tied to VIT, adjusting that vit down lowers our hp, which causes them to have to re-tool the fights they may have already had figured out for how much damage to put out on the tank and how frequently.

The same in reverse. If we're not doing enough and they want to boost us? Increase the vit gain on accs, but now that gives us more HP than what they balanced making the raid/damage values on.

So how would they have to adjust this with VIT tied to attack power? By constantly going into the attack power formula and making minute adjustments to how much AP you get from vit.

Easier solution: Keep VIT away from dictating AP, use STR only.

The logic is sound, we just need them to increase the amount of AP we gain from STR from 1:1 to 1:1.x, or add STR to our right side in the full values present on DPS accessories, and adjust it from 1:1 to 1:0.x, to keep us permanently x% behind DPS attack power that will always scale with them, preventing the necessity of adjusting enmity arbitrarily down the line.

[Kai_Lee]

If there is too much vit for tanks, why do my tanks hp drops to >10% against susanoo ex tanks buster?

[BlackironTarkus]

If there is too much vit for tanks, why do my tanks hp drops to >10% against susanoo ex tanks buster?

You missed the entire point of the post completely. The answer to your question however is your tanks are bad and don't know how to mitigate properly.

[Cevoh]

See I don't like this argument for the simple fact that if they want to adjust the damage they wouldn't have to adjust the VIT per gear they would just have to adjust the scaling. If we'd be doing to much damage they could just simply make it .45/.40 or whatever number they want, it wouldn't be hard and the "HP inflation" becomes null.

[BlackironTarkus]

See I don't like this argument for the simple fact that if they want to adjust the damage they wouldn't have to adjust the VIT per gear they would just have to adjust the scaling. If we'd be doing to much damage they could just simply make it .45/.40 or whatever number they want, it wouldn't be hard and the "HP inflation" becomes null.

It's probably easier to adjust the stat #'s on the new gear they're making instead of tearing into the attack power calculation for tanks for every single adjustment they want to make.

[SyzzleSpark]

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I'm sorry, how does this explain why having our attack power scale at a fraction of our VIT is a problem?

.45/.45 Did feel good for a while, and it would have continued to feel good. It was a decent system and it wasn't broken. Why are we giving SE a free pass to constantly be undecided about how much damage tanks would be dealing? They wouldn't make adjustments by lowering our HP, they'd make adjustments based on scaling, and if you scale VIT at say 1:0.8 AP and they decide that is too much or too little, how would it be different if it was scaled from strength? Is 0.8 of VIT higher than 0.8 of STR? And before anyone says oh well gear has slightly more VIT than STR - come on. Again, this is easily fixed. If they decide that 1 STR = 0.8 is too much, how is that different from the same scenario, had it been VIT instead?

If it did scale at 0.8 of VIT, how would it ever catch up or fall behind in relation to DPS jobs such that an adjustment would be needed?? Would the scaling somehow magically float down or up by 0.05% every patch or something? What is even going on? O.O

I really just don't understand why we're giving SE freebies to be obtuse with stats in this game, and so disproportionately at the tanking community's expense.

If our VIT and gear are always scaled with content and our attack power scales with that VIT at a lower ratio than actual DPS jobs, whence come the problem?

The entire logic of your post revolves around the idea that SE can't make up their minds how much damage tanks should be dealing, when the majority of the volatility in that area continues to come from the choices of the playerbase and not the design of Vitality as a stat.

There is literally no end numerical difference between fixing STR on tank gear at the same scaling and growth as DPS accessories with a 0.x modifier and having our DPS scale from VIT at a 0.x modifier, other than needlessly cluttering our gear with excess stats. And I really don't understand why we think it would be better to go back and add STR to every last piece of right-side tank gear in the game than to simply change the scaling of a single stat and be done. What is even the point of this? Is STR just a more prettier more favorite-est stat?

Also, look at what they've done with healers. How is this different again?

A tank's vitality does not grow exponentially faster with better gear than a melee DPS's STR or DEX. The entire argument for this makes my brain hurt, so, so hard. How does the AP scaling of VIT, such as it is now or such as it was in 3.2-3.5 or will be in 999.99999, in ANY WAY AT ALL tie to the HP scaling of VIT? It doesn't! It doesn't. Its like saying the exchange rate of US dollars to Swedish kronor somehow effects the exchange rate of Japanese yen to German deutsche marks. How are we even having threads about this?

Ultimately, your post describes an outcome that could just as easily be had with a VIT scaling, but for some reason we're gonna continue to let SE off the hook here, and I'm really not sure why. Just scale AP with VIT at X% lower than AP scales with STR/DEX/INT for DPS and let us be done with this tired, nauseating STR garbage for the rest of this game's lifetime SE, please.

[BlackironTarkus]

Tank HP currently does scale further and further from the other classes HP because they're not receiving HP buffs from 5 pieces of their gear either, which is why I'm an advocate of just adding Vit + Mainstat on every piece of gear and going from there. Honestly they shouldn't be messing with our stats/scaling *at all* and just lock us at an attack power some % behind DPS, then make adjustments to tank DPS in the rotational side with potency values and what not. The whole 'single actual stat + substat' thing they've got going on with accessories is completely outdated. Gear in general in this game is completely outdated.

[Kitfox]

I'm sorry, how does this explain why having our attack power scale at a fraction of our VIT is a problem?

The AP scaling factor is something that affects the entire level range, it doesn't change based on level. Some scale that works with gear at lvl70 might not work at lvl30 or 50. Changing the scaling factor has a chance to break something elsewhere. Changing VIT and STR on new gear only affects new fights and they can be tuned without affecting prior gear and scaling. Separating VIT from AP also doesn't affect incoming damage or non-tank VIT values when they want to tune tank dps, so it's better for balancing.

[Baci]

The AP scaling factor is something that affects the entire level range, it doesn't change based on level. Some scale that works with gear at lvl70 might not work at lvl30 or 50. Changing the scaling factor has a chance to break something elsewhere. Changing VIT and STR on new gear only affects new fights and they can be tuned without affecting prior gear and scaling. Separating VIT from AP also doesn't affect incoming damage or non-tank VIT values when they want to tune tank dps, so it's better for balancing.

You mean like SE changed our AP Scaling back to STR which totally did not screw with low level tanks aggro?
Sorry but SE doesnt plan so far ahead. They just change/tweak some stuff and hope it works

[Kitfox]

You mean like SE changed our AP Scaling back to STR which totally did not screw with low level tanks aggro?

Exactly. Now imagine they screwed up the scaling EVERY patch with new stuff by changing the AP multiplier. Would that be good? No. It's better they have a solid AP scaling principle and only tune the new gear to the new fight in order to not screw up the old stuff.