SAM out classing all other DPS

[Exiled_Tonberry]

But shouldn't it be NIN - SAM a combo that should be inneficient compared to NIN - MNK/DRG or SAM - MNK/DRG, since slashing debuff doesn't stack NIN - SAM combo should be inneficient compared to the other ones.

The fact that NIN - SAM is one of the best combo only means that or NIN is broken, SAM is broken or both are broken.

It was already said by Yoshi himself that they purposely overtuned SAM so people could use it more.
So yes, SAM is broken, no matter what people try to say to justify it.
There's no utility in the game, save Balance, that can add up to 500+ DPS over a fight.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

There's no utility in the game, save Balance, that can add up to 500+ DPS over a fight.

Ninja's in the corner laughing at this. TA is MASSIVE.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

Ninja's in the corner laughing at this. TA is MASSIVE.

Ninja is most likely overtuned as well lol. Considering the ease of their job mechanic, the amount of utility they bring and their ranged attack options, they SHOULD be the weakest DPS. Yet they're as strong as Monks. Just seems odd really.

[Galvuu]

snip

That's not the point, and you can't analyse it like this for many reasons.
First, you can afford to bring PLD+DRK because the dps will bring the slashing debuff. This is an advantage of such a comp (if nothing else, an advantage of versatility).
Second, we're discussing job balance and viability.
Our premise in this setting can't be "there will always be a NIN", because if there's always a NIN, that's already a balance issue, isn't it?
If the conclusion is "any serious comp must have a NIN", then clearly NIN is too strong (and it is).

In an ideal world of almost-perfect balance where NIN isn't something that every comp should have, then SAM allowing you to run PLD+DRK just like NIN does is utility. You'd say "I need a slashing debuffer here", and that would be an attractive point and raid dps gain for both these jobs. Like it was mentioned earlier, the fact that you put buff and therefore have this overlapping (and this useless) utility tool hints at how one or both are a bit too strong.
When you can ignore a 500 raid dps bonus a job brings and it's still the part of the best comp... I dunno what to say about it that I haven't already.

Lastly, from a purely statistical viewpoint, it's bad to assume independence where it's unlikely. Which would technically be the most important takeaway, even if it's inconsequential to the conclusion x)

[silentwindfr]

only for 10 sec every minute, means the sam still more interesting most of the time, since this 500 dps of difference is all the time.
If we take the 500 dps number you give it means the ninja get the same dps of the sam for 10 second, while the 50 other second the sam have still 500 more dps... plus the dps of the sam is too boosted for 10sec meaning he get ahead all the time.

people are plagued with the utility curse recently, forgetting to look at the whole picture. a lot of people think that raid is only a question of number or utility... sadly it's not like this, it's role over all. you will bring 2 tank, 2 healer, 1 support, 1 ranged dps, 1 melee dps and if you can... a main dps. someone that will have as sole goal to bring enough dps for cover for the support dps that have generally a dps subpar.

SAM like MNK have this role and seriously a raid leader don't concidering this will shoot in his feet.

[Dualgunner]

Niche? Going SAM or NIN Allows you to not need to pick WAR as a tank, so PLD/DRK tank composition it's not niche.

If it wasn't because of the fact that DRG was UP seeing a comp of PLD/DRK/SAM/DRG wouldn't be weird at all.

But you're GOING to have NIN because TA > All. Or, most will. Hence, niche.

And as soon as you bring a NIN, any unique utility SAM offered is gone.

[Nominous]

That's not the point, and you can't analyse it like this for many reasons.

It is the point, and you can analyze it like that. First thing you need to define is what the conversation even is. It is a conversation about what is best, min/maxing, and balance, or else nobody should be posting opinions here, other than to vent frustrations. Second, is how the game maintains balance, and how team comps are affected by that. And their balance decisions, by and large, come through way of the 'meta' Jobs' performance in the hardest content available (as opposed to Primals, Dungeons, and Alliance Raids). There is overwhelming evidence of this mindset for 'balance' from 2.xx-3.xx patch notes and raid Q&A in Live-Letters.

That being considered, NIN IS 'meta' for any team looking to push for that sort of thing. They are objectively about as powerful as any other DPS, but with extra 'benefits', so there's really no reason to leave it out, as it makes things 'easier' for everyone involved. You can safely assume that a team will have it, just as much as you can assume a team that cares about this will have an AST. Just like RDM is a shoe-in for casters, for very similar reasons. And yes, there is something wrong with that picture. However, it's inevitably going to happen. There's always a weakest and strongest, easiest and hardest. People want to take the path of least resistance, so if it's not NIN that's 'meta', it'll be DRG. If it ain't RDM, it's BLM. If it ain't BRD it's MCH.

Anyways, even if you remove SAM/NIN from the picture, it remains true that WAR creates a situation in which only one party member (the co-tank) can benefit proper from the Slashing debuff. Therefore, if the PLD/DRK setup brings comparable DPS, and more overall utility to the party then XXX/WAR, you can then safely assume that WAR isn't going to be in the party either.

All of this to say- SAM's slashing debuff isn't taken into account because there's few situations in which you'll be providing it as proper utility. And of those situations, very, very few matter in a conversation about balance, since, in those situations, you can't always choose the most efficient party comp in the first place (creating imbalance either way, better or worse, not only for the SAM).

[silentwindfr]

talking of team balance, i feel nin/sam is a very strong combinaison, both boost each other and can cover for the other one. instead to say bring more ranged, bring a nin/sam in the group is far more interesting in terms of dps than bring 1 more ranged. that is definitivly far below in terms of dps. without forget sam have a very strong movement capacity. get away from a target don't stop them dps (enpi can be used) and they can be back to melee extremely fast.

i feel for the dps group a strong: brd/rdm/nin/sam is very good. in terms of dps and utility it will create a very powerfull group compared to most other group.
with this group, you will have 4 people buffed by slashing debuff, the nin vulnerability, the bard song, rdm buff (that mostly impact physical damage) and the sam dps.

you add an AST over this and enjoy the group that will be extremely powerfull

[Janhyua]

If you nerf Sam then what the point of bringing a samurai when you can bring ninja which offer slashing debuff and trick attack!?!?!?!?!?! Ever think of that!?!?!? Ninja dps is pretty close to samurai if they got nerfed you can just delete samurai lol

[Janhyua]

And to add it on top of my post, this is why you are not hired to be SE battle team lol because you failed to understand