SAM out classing all other DPS

[Oscura]

Not if there are only 3 members. if there are 4 members, and each of them has utility that would make up for the DPS that replacing one of them with a SAM would, then why bring a SAM, since the utility would buff the other jobs as well. Including tanks/healer dps

If four members of the group are physical, in the case with a monk being DPS, then it would possibly be the two tanks, a monk, and a samurai, or instead a ninja. Here's the problem. Monk applying 5% physical dps ever 75 seconds to the NIN and two tanks won't beat out the Samurai. Tanks no longer do proper damage. Right now, the only reason tanks have any decent parses is because people keep stubbornly using slaying accessories from 3.4. It won't fly the more difficult the content becomes. Ninja's trick attack may make up for Samurai with the Monk there. The problem? That means there's no reason to have a Monk. Monk's own buff does not apply to it. Only surrounding physical attackers. If you have 2 casters in your party a monk is no longer necessary. A samurai can piggyback off of a Red Mage's embolden and a Ninja's trick attack far better than them. Monk giving 5% to a ninja and two tanks can't even compare.

As it stands, most of the group utility in added this patch is biased towards physical. Most dragoons will never use their dragon's sight on anyone but a tank or a melee since it has pathetic range. Embolden only buffs the physical attacks of anyone not the red mage. Brotherhood only buffs the physical attacks of anyone not the monk. The difference is that SAM does not need utility in order to shine, nor does it need support, where as DRG, MCH, and arguably MNK do. It also works together with all these buffs far better than most other classes, since obviously buffing the highest damage dealer is the best option. Right now, most utility exists to further push Samurai's damage, people would rather sacrifice a small amount of utility to bring a Samurai in to piggyback off the rest. It is not that the other classes don't do the same DPS, but that in certain comps at certain skill levels, there comes a point of "why not just take a samurai?" If a group were to have three casters, the only dps that could seriously compete for a spot against Samurai is a Ninja. That was my original point.

Edit: If I had an "ultimate point," or a tl;dr, it's just that most of the utility aside from Ninja just isn't strong enough to compete with outclassing a Samurai's damage. I've yet to see any mathematical proof that one class replacing a Samurai spot will bring overall more (raid) dps than a Samurai taking that spot itself.

[Ryaz]

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

[Oscura]

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

SE doesn't dislike parsers because people care about numbers. They're afraid of harassment and a certain incident in the JP community also lit that fire.

Also yes, people only care about numbers, because everything in a MMORPG is decided by numbers. Whether or not you get loot is decided by a number. Whether or not you survive an attack is decided by an equation of numbers. How much damage you do is decided by a number. Hell, whether or not you're able to gather something is also decided by a percentage, or a number.

This ridiculous notion that "numbers don't matter," when they decide absolutely everything aside from player skill is getting very annoying.

[Fyce]

Wasn't that what everyone said monk was, and it was in the same position you now want SAM to be in? Everyone cried monk didnt do enough DPS to support its lack of utility.

Except that MNK only brings Mantra as group utility, which is either mandatory (very rare but happens in raid progression) or almost useless (I'm speaking before Stormblood). SAM has the slashing debuff, which is way more valuable than Mantra. So don't talk like SAM doesn't have group utility like with MNK.
With a SAM, you can go PLD/DRK or PLD/PLD without any trouble. You can completly go without a NIN if you have a SAM. SAM is better than NIN in every way, except maybe for very particular burst phases where Trick Attack shines. Also, since the changes to NIN, running SAM+NIN doesn't make both complementary, as both will have to overlap each other's slashing debuff.

NIN is just a glorified aggro management tool with legs at this point, as long as SAM remains so high.

If you are wanting to nerf the only utility SAM has, then nerf every other jobs utility into the ground. No more SMN or RDM battle raise, no rdm heal, no battle litany, nothing. Make every DPS just straight up dps, and thats it.

DPS is utility. That's new... Whatever.
I never said that I wanted to bring SAM down so much that it would not be picked ever. Everything isn't just black and white. That's why it's called balance. The point is to balance things so every option is as good as the other. And currently that's not the case. SAM is so strong that it outshines pretty much every other DPS by a large margin.

Of course SAM's DPS has to be high. But not that high.
Please try to understand what balancing and nerfing mean.

[BlackThought]

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

It's almost like that's the game.

[Erys]

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

Well if a class OUTPERFORMS the rest, why wouldn't you take said class?
You will kill whatever faster, see less mechanics either by skipping or by killing stuff before they do them, risk less wipes. All this stuff decreases the toll that raiding sometimes takes on the team.
Yeah, you play the game to have fun. But wiping repeatedly and/or spending a lot of time in a raid when it could be far less starts draining every person in there rather fast.

[GospelVhae]

This ridiculous notion that "numbers don't matter," when they decide absolutely everything aside from player skill is getting very annoying.

I can imagine this guy playing his SAM and shrugging off whatever damage values he gets

"hm, 26k Midare Satsugekka"

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I can imagine this guy playing his SAM and shrugging off whatever damage values he gets

"hm, 26k Midare Satsugekka"

I've seen parses with SAM at 4600, and NIN at 4400. if you add in trick attack, does that not put NIN at the same level as SAM? If we are going off that, then its the other classes that need buffs, not SAM needing a nerf.

and thats 35k setsugekkas thank you. Also, BLM was getting 22k crits at 60 lol. no one complained they were OP.

[Oscura]

I've seen parses with SAM at 4600, and NIN at 4400. if you add in trick attack, does that not put NIN at the same level as SAM? If we are going off that, then its the other classes that need buffs, not SAM needing a nerf.

and thats 35k setsugekkas thank you. Also, BLM was getting 22k crits at 60 lol. no one complained they were OP.

No one complained about Black Mages at 60 because they were substantially harder to play than Samurai is. There was little to no margin for error to get good dps out of BLM. Many people I know have switched to Samurai simply because it's so easy compared to Monk. It's also far more rewarding.

Edit: Also, I do agree that other classes need buffs, rather than SAM getting nerfed. My only problem is I don't trust SE to not overbuff any classes. It's easier to nerf than buff, it's part of why you see nerfs more than buffs in most games period. AST was a good example of what goes wrong with buffing a class in the 3.x series. People shrugged off WHM.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

No one complained about Black Mages at 60 because they were substantially harder to play than Samurai is. There was little to no margin for error to get good dps out of BLM. Many people I know have switched to Samurai simply because it's so easy compared to Monk. It's also far more rewarding.

Edit: Also, I do agree that other classes need buffs, rather than SAM getting nerfed. My only problem is I don't trust SE to not overbuff any classes. It's easier to nerf than buff, it's part of why you see nerfs more than buffs in most games period. AST was a good example of what goes wrong with buffing a class in the 3.x series. People shrugged off WHM.

Yes, but they "nerfed" war and smn/sch, and everyone has thrown fits its now unbalanced, nerfs make everyone unhappy.