SAM out classing all other DPS

[HoLoFoNo]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

I hate when people say this. Y'know a little story called 2.0 WAR, 2.4 NIN and 3.0 MCH?

When it comes to having information about the capability of their classes, this development team isn't on the best side. They really need something like a public test realm because of course they can't balance shit perfectly all the time, they are only human. However this doesn't mean they cannot be wrong about things. It is even worse because in all of these cases they still thought they were right even after hearing the complaints and then proceeded to make changes to the classes. I've said this before (I think it was in this thread) but you can't forget that the development team consists of internal people who judge themselves by their intentions and therefore it is much harder for them to see if something isn't working as intended or in a way that the players are happy with.

They honestly need public play testing because it really isn't fun for the people who have their class cocked up. They typically do a good job addressing the issues (apart from 3.4 AST) so I don't think they are incompetent. It is just the fact that just because they have 'data' about the supposed abilities of the classes doesn't mean it is reflective of the actual ability and usage of the classes (case in point 2.4 NIN which was top dps but still had trick attack. Their justification was the NIN was hardest to play due to mudras but it was infact extremely easy to play with the lack of positionals and it had a straightforward rotation.)

[Fannah]

(case in point 2.4 NIN which was top dps but still had trick attack. Their justification was the NIN was hardest to play due to mudras but it was infact extremely easy to play with the lack of positionals and it had a straightforward rotation.)

I believe it wasn't only about difficulty only, but about the kind of lags the mudra naturally had (but maybe I'm wrong) Which was really hard and a pain to play in Europe as the servers we were playing on were still in America and not in Europe unlike now, which helped to fix a bit that problem.

About what's hard or easy to play, it's kind of a poor argument done overall on this game (I'm actually not targetting you, but you just remind me of that topic) as yes, everything is pretty easy overall compared to a lot of games made to be hard ("osu!" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsYLIg67pYo where you can't complain about missclick of any kind nor rythm problem or coordination ones) / "Path of Exile" Hardcore mode (die once and you lose months of playing (so you have to know well what you do) / the shoot'em up games (those in 2D with little planes shooting tons of bullets per second and where you have to dodge tons of bullet per second like here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHqN_fH2S7k) and of course tons of other games. Then yes, I believe we can all say everything is pretty easy and when you play a lot of those games where you need to be very reactive, having a game with a GCD of 2.5sec and dodging big aoe in red is reaaaally easy anyway. FFXIV is not a game made to be hard anyway.

I'm not saying everything is easy, but I would like to underline that nothing can be really said to be "hard". This is even why some bad tanks complain about "the dps get aggro on Sastasha, I will let him die" because the game is so easy that we have to create unexistent objectives like "the way we are supposed to do the dungeon" as anyway the dungeon will be succeed, and quickly anyway.

To me it's more about exploring a world, getting a nice story to live, meet people, talking, sharing advice and experiences, doing dumb things, doing the content to play together, or to challenge ourselves a bit, but never too seriously as anyway the game don't really allow us to challenge ourselves in a very serious way as it's not made for this.

[EbonySeraphim]

I'm not sure what you have seen, but I'm pretty sure MNK does around the same as ninja without BH (RNG dependent because lolmnk) and from the SSS dummy HP this was the intention. With the 2-3 extra forbidden chakras (again RNG dependent) every 90 seconds MNK is actually stronger than NIN at least on paper.

Doesn't the question then become: is Brotherhood's raid DPS advantage stronger than Trick Attack? Even if you prayed to and paid off RNGesus, that answer is no. Forbidden Chakra is gated behind a 5 second cooldown on a 15 second buff to feed you Chakra's so you at most get 230 * 3~4 => 690~920 potency on a single target from it every 90 seconds. In case folks are wondering, the fourth FC would be used outside of the buff from the ones gained during it?

That was a bit more of a mind exercise, I don't think Trick Attack or Ninja need be nerfed, but there should at least be parity.

[Ryaz]

The amount of hyperbole in this thread is absolutely staggering.
A class is "trash tier" if they do 2% less dps?
/facepalm

Welcome to an MMO forum where if your class isn't topping the charts AND bringing the most utility to the group, it's trash. People see the charts and they don't want to just be useful to the group, they want to win against everyone else. Egos are strong in the gaming community. Unfortunately, it's much easier to judge performance based on numbers than abstract things like utility. It's why "support" classes aren't as popular as they could be.

WoW was the same way. Looking at numbers in Legion and with the exception of a couple extreme cases on the ends of the spectrum (like when Hunters were just bad), the top and bottom DPS was within 5% of each other. Yet, people complained it wasn't enough, despite the fact that it could all easily clear content and that it's incredibly difficult to balance like 20+ DPS jobs perfectly.

[MiruWest]

Doesn't the question then become: is Brotherhood's raid DPS advantage stronger than Trick Attack? Even if you prayed to and paid off RNGesus, that answer is no. Forbidden Chakra is gated behind a 5 second cooldown on a 15 second buff to feed you Chakra's so you at most get 230 * 3~4 => 690~920 potency on a single target from it every 90 seconds. In case folks are wondering, the fourth FC would be used outside of the buff from the ones gained during it?

That was a bit more of a mind exercise, I don't think Trick Attack or Ninja need be nerfed, but there should at least be parity.

MNK does do more damage than NIN. MNK is sitting around 4.4k to 4.5k potential while NIN is around 4.1k to 4.2k barely. Why are people making it seem MNK is so bad? Oh wait because people will be sheep....

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

I'm kinda stuck between SAM or BRD. I don't mind about the DPS output per say, but I'm more pulled towards playing the class to max and how difficult the class is. I was actually quite surprised by the BRDs complexity. It's only 60 though. My SAM is 66 at the moment.

[Aion]

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

how can we give inputs...if we dont have the number? SE said no to parser because they afraid that it will be source of toxicity... but how we supposed to improve if we cant have number on what damage we deal, how many crits etc? your statement is contradicting.

yes of course people should be fine bring any job that they prefer to to raid/dungeons. but that did not excuse them to play poorly. because he may have fun, but the others may not. that what parser CAN tell us.
On topic:

SAM should be generally outclassing other DPS, as it design of their kit. Currently we cant say the class balance is working or not because the endgame raid isnt here yet. I agree with you that we shouldnt have mindset that any job is incapable to do the raid. but it has happened before and we should keep critical to the devs. Being critical does not mean we undervaluing what they have done, but they are human too.

[Dyvid]

Late to the discussion but the reality is this debate is going to be settled with on simple question. Which is better, a party with a mixed set of dps jobs or a party with 4 SAM? If it's 4 SAM then expect a nerf bat.

[Sunako]

Late to the discussion but the reality is this debate is going to be settled with on simple question. Which is better, a party with a mixed set of dps jobs or a party with 4 SAM? If it's 4 SAM then expect a nerf bat.

Stacking same classes also effect lb gauge generation so i dont think it is good idea.

[EbonySeraphim]

MNK does do more damage than NIN. MNK is sitting around 4.4k to 4.5k potential while NIN is around 4.1k to 4.2k barely. Why are people making it seem MNK is so bad? Oh wait because people will be sheep....

Did you just pull a Monk versus Ninja comparison when between those two jobs Ninja has usually always been the preferred raid member despite it being known that MNK has a higher personal DPS? We know where that comparison goes and the issue now is not what was it was yesterday! That means something *else* changed and it wasn't between Ninja and Monk. If you don't get that, then perhaps you need to take leave of this thread!