SAM out classing all other DPS

[Shiroe]

Why would they nerf SAM? It's doing exactly what the job was meant to do. Bring lots of damage. Their DPS isn't even that much higher than the other top DPS jobs. If you bring their damage down to where it is comparable to other classes, it loses all purpose as a job.

Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

[Kaiden019]

Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

Most of their damage comes for sustain so they will suffer harder than other jobs in fights that have phases where you can't damage the boss.

[Leonus]

Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

Mnk was excluded because it was only 100 - 150 dps more than Drg. That dos difference was eclipsed by the utility drg/Nin brought to the raid.
People use this comparison when it didn't work for mnk and want to put Sam in the same predicament.

Sam/Blm are you physical/magical heavy hitters. If they need Sams, then they better need Blms to compensate. I don't think either class needs to be nerfed.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

[Kaiden019]

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

[BlackThought]

To be fair that's basically what were doing right now. We are using numbers from a parse. Just not an official one.

SAM isn't an issue of who deals more damage, we can comfortably say that SAM deals the most, but people seem to have an issue with one DPS being designed to be stronger than the others. If SAM wasn't top of the charts they would be completely useless, it's not hard to understand.

Feels to me that some people are arguing about degrees while others are pretending they're talking absolutes, which is always how these things go.

Moreover, the idea that the devs know better than the community has almost never borne out in real life. The community decides the meta, always.

[EbonySeraphim]

This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game.

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). Also, though the tone of this thread is contentious, I don't see many people suggesting SAM should be nerfed necessarily. Rather that the other melee DPS jobs(DRG and MNKs really) have it tough with skills that are far more lackluster to use (requiring either luck, or raid-like coordination with another player) just to potentially catch up to the DPS advantage gained by simply playing SAM.

Does having a physical DPS heavy composition + 5% damage with a Monk allow the extra Forbidden Chakra's every 90 seconds catch up to what SAM offers or does it pass it? I''d say considering it's a more restrictive party composition, it should do noticeably more than simply having a SAM. The 10% damage increase and 5% to one other player from Dragon sight should be more beneficial than replacing the DRG with a SAM considering how restrictive and limited it is to use in the first place. DRG still has Battle Litany for that boost too, but Mantra is quite irrelevant if the healers can keep folks alive regardless of it. Let SAM be personal DPS king, but let higher effort + coordination yield better results by at least a noticeable margin.

[MiruWest]

snip

The thing is tho people are looking at personal numbers and not raid numbers. People see SAM at 4600 and DRG at 4200 and think DRG needs a potency buff yet they dont actually look at the damage increase the DRG is giving to the raid because I guess its not numbers you physically see on the meter. A DRG bringing Disembowel, Battle Litany, Dragon Sight, is a sizeable amount of extra dps the DRG brings to the raid across mutiple team members, yet people forget that and think the DRG should do almost as much DPS as the SAM and STILL bring that exact type of utility to the raid which literally brings us back to 3.0 MNK.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I think you kind of just suggested "ignorance is bliss" and "let those with all the power do what's best for us." I think Square is quite capable but they aren't impervious to making balance mistakes just like Blizzard didn't make Starcraft II perfectly balanced on release despite having craptons of data (running full on tournaments before full release). *snippety snip*

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

You do realize that there is no way for us,to let them know about damage gaps between jobs without parses right? Parsers already exist and tons of people use them.

But, people aren't supposed to be using parsers. SE has already made that clear.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

[Aion]

Well, it's actually more like "quit jumping to conclusions based on hearsay and letting those erroneous conclusions get in the way of your enjoyment of the game" and "we have no means of seeing all the data SE in accumulating. They are in a better position to make decisions than us."

Anyhow, it's possible things need tweaked. I don't want to see the pitchfork and torches mob dumping on the players of samurai nor do I want to see players get into this meta headset and start trying to exclude jobs like machinists and dragoon from raiding.

The balance doesn't matter for in the majority of the game. If a party isn't in the cutting edge of raiding, it doesn't matter who you bring to deal damage.

That's all I'm saying.

In addition, parsers are notoriously prone to misinterpretation. Players cherrypick information that supports their arguments all the time in WoW. This is what SE is trying to avoid.

This thread was originally a troll's attempt to stir things up and get people thinking samurai should be nerfed. We don't have the information to make that call nor should we ever have that level of information.

We are not the game designers. We are the players. This isn't game play by democracy or mob rule.

SE make those calls. They decide what is balanced and what is not. Our part in this, is to play the game and offer our observations and criticisms. They receive our input then decide what to do from there.

how can we give inputs...if we dont have the number? SE said no to parser because they afraid that it will be source of toxicity... but how we supposed to improve if we cant have number on what damage we deal, how many crits etc? your statement is contradicting.

yes of course people should be fine bring any job that they prefer to to raid/dungeons. but that did not excuse them to play poorly. because he may have fun, but the others may not. that what parser CAN tell us.
On topic:

SAM should be generally outclassing other DPS, as it design of their kit. Currently we cant say the class balance is working or not because the endgame raid isnt here yet. I agree with you that we shouldnt have mindset that any job is incapable to do the raid. but it has happened before and we should keep critical to the devs. Being critical does not mean we undervaluing what they have done, but they are human too.