Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

[aleph_null]

In TERA the damage was constant like in WoW, so someone could tell you what the attacks were and their tells, but you'd have to figure out the dance yourself.

Just different game designs I guess. Even when we can map things out by gcd, the majority of the players aren't even good enough (or in good enough groups) to tank savage out of tank stance so it's kinda boring to see people (not you) argue that tanking in this game is so ez mode that tanks are optimizing dps without tank stance, especially when it's coming from someone who hasn't even cleared the raids themself. The devs can make it a requirement to turtle tank to clear raids but by making it necessary for the best tanks in the best groups in the game to stay in tank stance, they'll simply make the raids too hard for the majority (not to mention it'll be unfair if the raids require tanks to go all out with mitigation but not require extremely good and continuous healing and optimal dps rotations as well).

[Reynhart]

The devs can make it a requirement to turtle tank to clear raids but by making it necessary for the best tanks in the best groups in the game to stay in tank stance, they'll simply make the raids too hard for the majority

I still disagree with that. By knowing the fight really well, a good tank can pinpoint the exact mitigation it needs, and drop its tank stance on some windows. But, what if that knowledge was instead used to drastically reduce the amount of healing you need so that one healer can go full DPS mode, or that you could bring a 5th DPS ?

This would end in two different setup for different tanks. WAR could still be the king of stance dancing and be recommended for agressive tanking, while PLD would be for turtle players, requiring much less healing support. I think we've talked about that on another topic, and yes, these two setups can not be exactly perfectly balance, but at 1-2% overall DPS apart, the community wouldn't really bother.

If all tank jobs follow the same philosophy, we don't need three of them...in case 3.x didn't make that crystal clear

[Marxam]

I personally think this is a good thing. Was in a prog susano ex group and even the tank buster hits for about 25-30k with just my cds alone, not including barrier heals. I'm running with over 50k hp in defiance and even I'm starting to think that might be too much. Proper defensive cd management will always trump "better" gear and higher vit. Also I don't see a problem with this. Tanks can hold hate more easily and healers have to heal more to keep us from dying. Looks like SE thought this one through perfectly.

[aleph_null]

I haven't put much thoughts into non 2/2/4 comps since 3.x contents were mostly designed around having two tanks and/or two healers. Even susano and lakshmi seemed to follow that trend as well. Making pld a "solo tank" job would also make its dps lower than other tanks, thus punishing people when they queue into 8 man contents with a pld. Giving pld stances for super tanky mode and normal tank mode and dps mode would just overcomplicate things and make it confusing for new plds.

[Sarcatica]

I still disagree with that. By knowing the fight really well, a good tank can pinpoint the exact mitigation it needs, and drop its tank stance on some windows. But, what if that knowledge was instead used to drastically reduce the amount of healing you need so that one healer can go full DPS mode, or that you could bring a 5th DPS ?

This would end in two different setup for different tanks. WAR could still be the king of stance dancing and be recommended for agressive tanking, while PLD would be for turtle players, requiring much less healing support. I think we've talked about that on another topic, and yes, these two setups can not be exactly perfectly balance, but at 1-2% overall DPS apart, the community wouldn't really bother.

If all tank jobs follow the same philosophy, we don't need three of them...in case 3.x didn't make that crystal clear

I disagree. Tanks generally have more tools to do damage than healers, it's actually gotten so much easier for healers to dps now that Cleric Stance is not impactful anymore. Even so, Healers can DPS just as well, you are denying that fact that most people aren't up to that skill or probably the mindset just isn't there. You see, in a good team everyone has time to DPS and still do their job well. SCH (albeit the mana issue) can do 1.5k dps in Susano EX while I can do 2.1k easy even when MT-ing, given if there is no mistake (granted these 2 EXs are rather disappointing as the only 2 'hard' content). This is something the game can't teach you, you need to be around the good people to actually know the difference. I can have both tanks doing 2.2k each in Lakshmi EX and healers doing 1k++ each. Granted JP datacenter is just straight up better in most content. This right here is just the skills involved and not some kind of voodoo magic.

WAR is now the current worst tank to bring currently, PLD and DRK are now better by a good margin. It doesn't mean that WAR is bad, it's just that PLD and DRK are just straight up better. You can see Xeno's vid on that, I am not fond of him on certain aspects of the game but I generally agree with him on the 3 tanks so far. You are lacking that information that all good players already have by now, what's there to argue about when you aren't informed? This is how hard it is to have a unified opinion because most of the people here just have no idea what they are talking about. If you aren't doing at least 1-2 slaying now, you just aren't considered a good tank in this game. Period. This goes back to Gordias patch when it was required of tanks to do either Slaying/Crafted accessories, you just weren't raiding if you had 20k HP in Gordias because you were likely not informed of the meta.

The data since 3.x has long supported that healers' total DPS is generally less than what tanks can do, that's something anyone has to know. Leaving tanks in tank stance doesn't mean that the healers can make up for the tanks' lost DPS. The change to Cleric Stance makes it way easier for healers to not worry about switching, aka easy mode: you need to heal, just heal. you want to dps, just throw in spells. There is no more situations where you are still in Cleric Stance and you heal with it. Your "could" theories as a whole hasn't come to fruition so far. I'm truly sorry to say this but you are just ignorant or rather choose to be ignorant so to speak. Of all this time, you keep advocating turtle tanks when this game doesn't operate that way. What's the big deal?

[Reynhart]

I'm truly sorry to say this but you are just ignorant or rather choose to be ignorant so to speak. Of all this time, you keep advocating turtle tanks when this game doesn't operate that way. What's the big deal?

Ok, so maybe you could reread my posts before judging.

I'm not ignorant at all of how the game works now, and I'm not theorizing on what way to optimize current content. I just think it's a bad design choice to put all tanks into the same playstyle.
It still baffles me how people are so adamant on defending only one meta, to the point that people frequently call me selfish for wishing different type of tanks to please different type of players.

Making pld a "solo tank" job would also make its dps lower than other tanks, thus punishing people when they queue into 8 man contents with a pld. Giving pld stances for super tanky mode and normal tank mode and dps mode would just overcomplicate things and make it confusing for new plds.

Not necessarily. PLD could have a stacking buff that gradually reduce damage taken and dealt, and increase enmity. In dungeons, you wouldn't build much stacks and only suffer your naturally lower DPS. But in raids, you would manage your stacks to be really tanky. That buff could use your oath gauge, and you'd try to rebuild as fast as possible to refresh its duration and increase its effect.

A long time agro, I described something like that...back then it was a spell that cost a lot of your MP, increase Shield Oath effect on damage (dealt and received) by 10%, and increased the enmity multiplier by 1. Each time you cast the spell you add another 10%/+1 enmity but reduce the max duration by 5 seconds. And you would refill your MP to cast it again and again until the duration was so low that you had no choice but to let it wear off, and start again. With a cost of half your max MP and an intial duration off 30s, I think I managed to go up to 80% damage reduction for the last 5s.

[Sarcatica]

Part of the satisfaction of tanking for some players is the fact that, as you refine and optimise your mitigation timing, your dps goes up. You don't just get positive feedback as a tank for positioning well and surviving the fight; you also get it for pushing out damage that people simply weren't expecting you to do on your chosen job. I'm not looking for the illicit thrill that you got when you outperformed a BRD as a STR WAR in T13 while doing all of the tanking mechanics. Those days are over. I'm just looking to be able to chase their heels a little and make 'em sweat.

Actually... the STR WAR outdpsing BRD in T13 was still purely because most BRD players were just straight awful. Only a few BRD players like Krietor was doing 450dps++ back then comparing to WAR doing 330-340ish. I kept hearing BRD was a support class blablabla... but really, doing 350dps wasn't anything tbh.

Overall I would actually be fine if SE wants to lower down tank's DPS overall, they will have to tune our enmity skills to compensate for the damage loss though. Lock out the i270 while at it.

[Causality]

Problem is that people are allowed to change gear to low level stuff while in a dungeon. Bypass the minimum requirements: Then Switch to Str gear.

You can queue with 2 i270 accessories. If the rest of your gear is the 310 (tome items), you will be i303. Extreme Primals have a requirement of 300. The real thing is SE has made 2 STR accessories (even at i270) seem attractive to full vit. Max that can be melded to a 310 accessory is 25 STR. Since statics are clearing Primals with their tanks in STR 270s, its quickly becoming the new meta.

Is it sustainable, No. I doubt it will be good to go for Omega, but right now its not harming Susano EX or Lakshimi EX.

[Sarcatica]

Ok, so maybe you could reread my posts before judging.

I'm not ignorant at all of how the game works now, and I'm not theorizing on what way to optimize current content. I just think it's a bad design choice to put all tanks into the same playstyle.
It still baffles me how people are so adamant on defending only one meta, to the point that people frequently call me selfish for wishing different type of tanks to please different type of players.

There are many metas so to speak but in context of the game, there is always going to be the best meta. It's just unavoidable in all the games. Ultimately it's still your choice to be in tank stance and be the brick you dream of, or better trying to sustain as a PLD and let your healers do more DPS. The meta you are talking about isn't the same when you are climbing to the top. There are always tradeoffs when you are talking about meta and it's up for the community (or rather the top players in the game) to decide which is the best meta, that's it. It's like you are bringing all physical in FF10 to kill a Flan without the needed skill, when it's just way easier and more effective to use a caster to kill off the Flan. It's not any different for any game, people tend to bring the best jobs if they can.

[Reynhart]

It's like you are bringing all physical in FF10 to kill a Flan without the needed skill, when it's just way easier and more effective to use a caster to kill off the Flan.

Technically, you could bring physical fighters to kill that flan, if one of them has a skill to reduce its def to 0 (Hello, Armor Break), considering that physical attacks has a lower CT than magic and cost nothing.

And, if we stick to your example, would your praise the game design if every boss you encounter throughout the whole game is a flan ?