Tanks using ilv270 STR acessories

[Reynhart]

As long as you can make decisions about gear stats, there will always be differences in performance that result from it.

But tank situation is basically an oversight from SE...no other job has to make that kind of "decision". Even if you have a liking to a certain secondary stat, never will it have such a huge impact on your performance.

Regardless of your style of gameplay, there's no reason for anyone to be opposed to this idea, as it doesn't impinge on your gameplay style.

I'm not opposed to the idea of aggressive tanking. I'm opposed of it being the only way from a competitive standpoint. Basically, the game gives you two options : One that offers nothing in a competitive aspect, and the other who offers everything...not really a choice, now, isn't it ?

My point was that if you had tank accessories with both VIT and STR, tank damage will also scale with accessory ilvl, kind of like every other role in the game, including healers. Treat the problem, not the symptom.

Or you could do like healing accessories with piety. Vit would become like a secondary stat and wouldn't increase your damage at all. But no more pure VIT accessories.

[Brannigan]

In the STR vs VIT debate, "respectable damage" is not achieved through skill and gameplay understanding, it's achieved through stuff

I mean this isn't really true. Yes, your damage is literally increased by your increased STR, but dead tanks do zero damage. Surviving with that lower HP does take more skill and gameplay understanding than surviving with more max HP. You can look at it as part rotation tightness and part having enough fight knowledge and execution to be able to survive. Threading that needle can be tough in fights like Living Liquid where his cleaves do ~75% of your HP and missing your mitigation timing means you're dead.

Anyway I'm not so much concerned with big dick DPS numbers as I am with the lack of scaling for my small dick DPS numbers. If they keep it like it is now (which I doubt they will), i270 rings will pop up late in the expansion since each one gives you ~3 Stormblood pieces worth of STR. You might not wear full i270 stuff in the final raid, but giving up one accessory's worth of VIT for 3 of STR is almost a no brainer.

Once again I'd like to propose the ultimate solution of removing main damage stats from all accessories, making them VIT/substats/class specific stuff only, and forcing everyone to use main stat materia. Currently INT/MND/DEX materia have zero use in the game and that's pretty dumb. Really though they should just add some amount of scaling STR to tank accessories and class lock everything from pre-SB. I'm the type that actually loves unique items that stick around through expansions in MMORPGs, but those items aren't supposed to be something as boring as STR accessories.

Also this is kind of a side thing but god damn removing crafted overmelds and strength accessories and different sword delays and different shield types makes me really hate their item and battle team. Rather than fixing VIT accessories by giving them some actual advantage they just gimped everything else. If they're going to keep choice so limited can they at least TRY to add set bonuses or something? Removing item choice takes away things to do in the game (i.e. collecting items so you can make those choices). I was actually kind of excited when I heard Skillspeed would increase your auto attack rate because that meant it'd be better for Sword Oath and Ninjas than for other classes. Turns out that was BS and it just increases AA damage. Thanks SE.

[YitharV2]

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

Don't you know you're a tank and you're supposed to sit in tank stance and spam your aggro combo for days? :^)

[Furious]

I'm not really sure why there's so much ongoing resistance to the idea of tanks doing respectable damage. It doesn't force any gameplay changes, and you can still play however you want. It just means that tank contributions are valued. It's not particularly difficult to implement, either. Just make the accessories VIT + STR, with a slightly lower level of STR than the slaying ones. Most people wouldn't have even touched the i270 accessories if the newer ones offered even the pretence of stat progression.

There's a whole lot of subjectivity in this comment that really is illogical.

A. What is respectable damage? What would you be happy with?
B. Why do tanks need to do a specific value of damage provided they can do their jobs? Whatever level they are set at, that is what people will optimise to, same as dps values.
C. Why wouldn't tank contributions be valued just because they are lower?

The argument just doesn't work; it requires as much subjectivity to pose the question as it does to presuppose an answer from SE. The only answer that will ever matter is "because that's what SE wants".

When you say there's ongoing resistance to tanks doing respectable damage you predispose the listener to assume that that paradigm is in some way valuable intrinsically. It's not. Tanks work just fine as a paradigm at practically any baseline relative damage value, as long as they otherwise work mechanically. What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

[NinefoldRakshasa]

What matters is what SE wants for that paradigm.

What matters is what the paying customers want sunshine, better live with that though. And considering you're a pally, your opinion hardly counts.

[Lyth]

...

It's an opinion. There is no such thing as intrinsic value, as it is always ascribed relative to an individual's personal value system. My views here are subjective, just like yours. To pretend otherwise would be disingenuous. This isn't math class, and I unfortunately can't algebraically prove the truthiness of my sentiments. I can, however, express my feelings and opinions on the matter as they've developed over the course of these two expansions.

By "respectable damage", I'm talking about damage as a percentage of total raid dps. You don't want tank dps to proportionally be so high that you overlap with pure damage dealer jobs, when played competantly (as was the case in Final Coil/Gordias). At the same time, if you tune it to be proportionally low, there's less and less incentive to play optimally. The problem that I have with these changes is that with each iteration, the relative proportion of tank dps to raid dps keeps getting scaled back.

Part of the satisfaction of tanking for some players is the fact that, as you refine and optimise your mitigation timing, your dps goes up. You don't just get positive feedback as a tank for positioning well and surviving the fight; you also get it for pushing out damage that people simply weren't expecting you to do on your chosen job. I'm not looking for the illicit thrill that you got when you outperformed a BRD as a STR WAR in T13 while doing all of the tanking mechanics. Those days are over. I'm just looking to be able to chase their heels a little and make 'em sweat.

As a tank in a raid environment, you often end up making sacrifices to facilitate other players and make their jobs easier. But we're not just there as support, we're there to help defeat the boss too. There has to be a certain amount of give and take, and that only happens if we can bring a reasonably significant contribution to the table between the two tanks. Otherwise we're just there to position the boss, do tank mechanics, and watch at the behest of damage dealer roles. You want people to take up the tanking mantle? Let players feel like their Bloodspillers, Fell Cleaves, Holy Spirits, and other assorted attacks matter, for starters. That's really what's at the core of this STR accessory debate.

[Sarcatica]

Part of the satisfaction of tanking for some players is the fact that, as you refine and optimise your mitigation timing, your dps goes up. You don't just get positive feedback as a tank for positioning well and surviving the fight; you also get it for pushing out damage that people simply weren't expecting you to do on your chosen job. I'm not looking for the illicit thrill that you got when you outperformed a BRD as a STR WAR in T13 while doing all of the tanking mechanics. Those days are over. I'm just looking to be able to chase their heels a little and make 'em sweat.

Actually... the STR WAR outdpsing BRD in T13 was still purely because most BRD players were just straight awful. Only a few BRD players like Krietor was doing 450dps++ back then comparing to WAR doing 330-340ish. I kept hearing BRD was a support class blablabla... but really, doing 350dps wasn't anything tbh.

Overall I would actually be fine if SE wants to lower down tank's DPS overall, they will have to tune our enmity skills to compensate for the damage loss though. Lock out the i270 while at it.

[VargasVermillion]

I think some people are missing the point, it's not really about the numbers tanks deal, even with full str they shouldn't be doing more than a dps but atm with full vit a good tank will do about half of a dps, if that's what the devs want then fine. The issue here though is that it'll inevitably force us to stay in tank stance and the actual challenges of tanking (and healing) come in when you try to maximize your damage while still performing your main function, if you take that ability to optimize away then both roles become quite bland since the mechanics they have are still built around doing both rather than exclusively surviving,building hate/healing.

If people want pure tanks/healers than the mechanics have to change to make those things rewarding because anyone who's played either for an extensive amount of time will tell you that mitigating damage, holding aggro and keeping everyone alive is the easiest part of said roles.

[whiskeybravo]

If people want pure tanks/healers than the mechanics have to change to make those things rewarding because anyone who's played either for an extensive amount of time will tell you that mitigating damage, holding aggro and keeping everyone alive is the easiest part of said roles.

I mean, I blame the devs more than the players. It makes no effin' sense that 270 accessories are most likely going to end up being BiS for at least the first raid tier.. Like how does that even happen? Because the content they designed doesn't require you to have any more vitality. Or you know, have any other role other than popping a CD and trying to make up for the bad Red icons in your group.

That's the thing. The content should be able to be cleared with 4 Red icons. That's their job, their pretty much only job. Tanks should not have to "pick up the slack". Tank DPS is like the icing on the cake - not the flour, eggs, and milk that make up the cake itself.

My problem with the players only goes as far as attitude towards the whole debacle. Straight up kicking people from groups for one build or another, harassing other players that don't perform to "their" expectations. That whole side of the equation is really the only thing that eats at me because it confuses new players and creates a lot of unnecessary tension between players who otherwise know what they are doing, but prefer to play more conservative, and players who are at the top end of progression trying to squeeze every ounce of damage possible. It's 2 totally different realms. But at the end of the day, it's the devs fault for creating the environment for which these factors exist. People will always try to get away with whatever they can get away with, either in real life or a video game.

[YitharV2]

I think some people are missing the point, it's not really about the numbers tanks deal, even with full str they shouldn't be doing more than a dps but atm with full vit a good tank will do about half of a dps, if that's what the devs want then fine. The issue here though is that it'll inevitably force us to stay in tank stance and the actual challenges of tanking (and healing) come in when you try to maximize your damage while still performing your main function, if you take that ability to optimize away then both roles become quite bland since the mechanics they have are still built around doing both rather than exclusively surviving,building hate/healing.

If people want pure tanks/healers than the mechanics have to change to make those things rewarding because anyone who's played either for an extensive amount of time will tell you that mitigating damage, holding aggro and keeping everyone alive is the easiest part of said roles.

Thank you. I wish I could upvote you more. This is exactly what I was trying to say.