Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Zojha]

Edit because I don't think you understand: that fight came out in September/October and released i260/270 upgrade gear that patch. By April you could get i280 Weapons from Diadem and i265 gear easily from Diadem and farm i270 upgrade tokens weekly from the Void Ark

*snerk*
You think that matters to people who are good enough to beat that fight in classes? They probably already handily got the i270 gear and weapons months ago via raiding and just did it in april for the lulz because they got the thing on farm and got bored.

In fact, they first did it with echo to see if it was possible, then decided to try again without. They most likely didn't even have Diadem weapons, because those are fairly rare. They "could" have done it on the same patch, if they had wanted. They just didn't, it was easier to learn in jobs first.

The whole point is: If "viability" is all you're concerned with, then you can leave any and all balancing discussions for good, because even classes are viable, so jobs will definitely be. You have nothing to discuss, there's no point even raising your voice. You're just noise.

Balance is a different thing that's about whether the jobs will be equally good, or at least roughly. That is an independent discussion from viability - you can have all jobs balanced without any of them being viable and all viable without any of them being balanced. And this is what people are worried about with white mage. It will most definitely be able to clear all content - but is there any reason to pick one over an Astrologian? Is there a reason to pick a Conjurer over a White Mage? That's the thing people are worried about. The content will be clearable, that's taken for granted.

[Ceasaria]

[...]with white mage. It will most definitely be able to clear all content - but is there any reason to pick one over an Astrologian? or a SCH ?

Fixed.

I dunno, plenty of people would probably prefer to take an experienced WHM over an FOTM AST reroller.

True.
AST is far more complex than WHM to play (before 4.0).

[javid]

Balance is a different thing that's about whether the jobs will be equally good, or at least roughly. That is an independent discussion from viability - you can have all jobs balanced without any of them being viable and all viable without any of them being balanced. And this is what people are worried about with white mage. It will most definitely be able to clear all content - but is there any reason to pick one over an Astrologian? Is there a reason to pick a Conjurer over a White Mage? That's the thing people are worried about. The content will be clearable, that's taken for granted.

Agreed! Philosophically!!

But then define "balance".... The majority of this thread's definition of "balance" is they want WHM's max contribution to be comparable in terms of preemptive mitigation (more soils, CU, Fey Cove, Bole*) and Total raid DPS contribution (AST's cards and now SCH's crit).



Now in terms of general mitigation, I have been in direction opposition to majority, arguing that preemptive mitigation (bole, soil, hp extension*, virus, etc) has NO advantage over retroactive mitigation ( Divine Seal, Fey illum, Mantra, etc) EXCEPT in the instance where MAX HP is insufficient to handle the income dmg----which in this game is somewhat uncommon, even with weakness. Also in this game retroactive mitigation has more effective mitigation potency than preemptive mitigation.

ex: a virus 15% reduction on a 18k Whirlwind = 2,700 dmg reduced! this reduction is cool and all but if all your party members are plus 18k HP a retroactive cd would have net you more effective mitigation, i.e. Assize 300 potency (ilv270) = 4.1k. (note: I know it's not always a matter of either or for whether using a preemptive or retroactive utility. This was JUST an example to make a point of preemptive vs retroactive)



Secondly on the matter of preemptive vs retroactive mitigation, SE has never made all preemptive mitigation exclusive to AST/SCH. So even in the instance where preemptive mitigation is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED you will now have all your casters for magic debuffs, and all your melee for physical and your range melee with unique debuffs. This will mean the only time A WHM in terms of preemptive mitigation will fall short to AST/SCH personal preemptive mitigation is when all your dps refuse to cross class them & you have no pld & both WHM's e4e are on cd/didn't proc---i.e. NEVERR!!!

WHM has no HEALING gap....they don't play in a vacuum. "Healing" is balanced in FAVOR of WHM which has less to do and still get the same healing outcome.





RAID DPS

... This portion of the "balance among healers", conversation stressed me out... More or less ppl are crying that the MAX WHM dps contribution isn't nearly as significant as MAX AST's dps contribution, and also subordinate to MAX SCH's dps contribution. Now these are truthful observations...but it neglects to mention the VAST majority of healers are not comfortable managing to DPS while healing a DUNGEON??!! So it would be fair to say, "the vast majority of healers are not pushing each healing job to its respective max DPS contribution potential."

Which begs the question? How would making yet another complex healing job that the majority WILL NOT push to its max potential solve your REAL dps GRIPE?? For example Balance is up nominally 30-35% of the fight on the whole party meaning only a 3-3.5% raid dps increase. A 3-3.5% raid dps will NOT displace a healers personal dps contribution. This means you have more dps lost thru a non-dpsing healer (or healers...) WITH BALANCE, than you would with a no balance and no SCH crit healer that is maxing his personal dps contributions.

Here is the non echo Best A12S clear times; go down the list and check the party Balance up-times (20-40% up-time), then do the math on the complete party dps (to include the healers personal dps) and compare the Balance contribution to any healer personal dps.... Then COME BACK!!! And realize these are the results of the BEST OF THE BEST OF THE BEST..... and their Balance contributions do not displace any of their healer's personal contributions......yet you have the vast majority of the heal community UNCOMFORTABLE dpsing in a dungeon..... and you think the problem is "WHM doesn't have any raid dps utility"........

https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/13#boss=37&partition=1