Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[LadyKairi]

FFXIV is about working as a team, not about selfishly pursuing our own parser numbers, no? The party as a whole should do whatever it takes to secure victory, which is why healers dps. Saying tanks shouldn't help healers heal is like saying healers shouldn't help dps dps. :3 It's just an arbitrary double standard~

We should be able to handle ourselves, though. It is no secret that you come accross people who will not assist the healers, regardless if we are supposed to work as a team. There is no escaping that. Which is why I say, we should not have to rely on outside help to survive. I've come accross to many selfish players. If you think everyone does their best to help everyone in their party, you are very wrong. Mine/others experiences have proven otherwise.

[LadyKairi]

o.O

The only self healing tanks have lost is Second Wind. Paladin still has Clemency while Warrior has Bloodbath and Equilibrium. At least as far as I've been. Give you have any links, do share please.

As I've said, it's just what I've heard from stalking the forums, so don't take it to heart.

[Anastacy]

Sadly, the negativity surrounding WHMs currently isn't just on the side of WHMs.

[Sylvain]

I healed with AST in casual dungeons it could, by all means, heal big pulls. It just took more for them to do it, which is fine considering the buffs they bring.
It SHOULDN'T be as easy to heal on AST as it is on WHM.

Also how is Divine Seal not unique? It's WHMs only healing buff and the only thing that truly kept them above other healers. Now it's gone.

As an Ast I have to disagree with you.
No actually I agree with you, when we purely consider heal, no buff no special thingy, WHM should be above both healer.

Coming to SB, if I team up with a WHM, I except him to dish out more heal than I, otherwise, yeah, what<s the point?

Concerncing Divine seal, it's not unique because both other healer have access to a similar buff.
AST through synastry (even tho we have another very interesting effect)
and SCH fey illumination as party buff
So... not only is it not unique, but it is always weaker. the 10% more bonus you get does not equal the party buff or the ability to heal 2 target at the same time imo.


Btw, would it be possible that some spell from the cross heal skill have been reworked?

I find really weird that they putted esuna, barrier and mp regen into the mix.
While we can argue about esuna being not really mandatory for most fight, the two other block 2 spells which goes against the whole "tailor your needs".

Divine Seal isn't mandatory imo, sure it helps a lot in dire situation, but unless your in top tier guild where every little % will count because of the lack of gear compared to the progression rate, +30% heal for a short period of time won't matter much to most people. Most of the time, player die from failing at mechanic, not because the healer couldn't dish out a bigger heal.

However Barrier reduce too much of the incoming damage for the entire fight and unless our mp regen is drastically change, we can't really finish a fight without shroud of saint-like skill.

Which makes me wonder, and I am probably wrong here, could we be wrong about the nature of these skills?
For instance
what if barrier, instead of being a 9min duration, was
Barrier: Place a barrier on your target reducing their damage taken by 20% for 15sec. 90sec CD.
Esuna: Instant and out of GCD: 20sec CD (all already keep their basic 1sec cast esuna on the GCD), a bit like for the tanks and paladin retaining it.

Shroud of the saint grants back too much mana to be overlooked, but maybe everyone kept their mp regen tool, white mage got a new one and perhaps the icon was a place holder.

I mean, I'm surely wrong but if the battle-system team put 4 mandatory skills in there, it goes against the whole idea of "choosing the skills you need".
Which is why I really wonder if there isn't more to it. I mean, it's TOO big of a mistake, temporary buff are optional in most scenario. The ability to remove a debuff from your target isn't option, barrier isn't optional, it litteraly can reduce enough dmg to keep people alive from boss aoe burst transition.
Right now, only these 3 skills are really mandatory. Which is why I wonder, could they be reworked in a more "optional manner".

[Yuyuka3]

You sure are passionate about this eh? Try to calm down with the salt a bit though, I'm sure we are both intelligent people, lets try debating in a manner that fits ok? <3

Always. Patience got wittled down over the past four years, leaving only passionate protectionism behind. Also, I love myself a good debate. What I don't like, however, is being told that my worries count nothing because someone else supposedly has it worse. It's not helpful, and devaluates somebody else's problems, which is never a good thing.

Re PFs, my point is that at this stage with gear as it is +echo, it's pointless locking out any job. Anyone trying to enforce a meta (or non meta) comp on their PF beyond simply trying to ensure you don't end up with a comedy club setup is rather likely to be an idiot. It's just not needed. If you don't like it, make your own.

Wasn't exactly talking about now. I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm currently just logging in for daily stuff, if at all; not much else to do. My computer is causing problems, too, so playing is a bit of a hassle right now until I get it fixed. Also, a few games got released recently that I want to play right now, so I'm mostly killing time until the expansion hits. RL is also quite busy right now, which is why I was away all day.
Anyway. What I was talking about was when Zurvan just came out/pre-echo Alexander. Barely a chance to get anything then, and heared similar stories from other less sought after classes. Of course it doesn't matter now anymore, nether said anything against that, but do I really should have to wait until content is so faceroll that it doesn't matter what you play anymore to get into groups?

As for your point regarding joining statics, I did read it, but I also don't buy it. Not one little bit. I've never had an issue getting a seat in a top notch static and I've always been considered a WHM main amongst my server's raid community from day one.

Well... I even searched on Reddit, and in this very forums, but nothing. And the only groups recruiting while I was looking were groups that wanted more time investment than I can offer, or super-casual groups. However, looks like my old raid (which disbanded around two months ago) might at least partially return to the game with the expansion, so maybe I can search with others instead of alone. That would make things easier.

You say WHMs are at risk of falling off the edge, yet a quick scroll through PF to look at the actual players in parties that are forming on Chaos right now, 3 AST, 6 WHM, 0 SCH. Go figure. Maybe I'll be more concerned when people stop playing the role.

Just that it's not really a meter for how many people play the class in progression. Not even remotely. Maybe those people normally play AST in raids because their groups wants it that way, but actually prefer WHM. I know quite a few people who are this way. Maybe they feel WHM is less stressful, so now that they know the content, they just want to casually farm stuff and take WHM because it doesn't matter anymore. Or they aren't raiders at all, but farm birds/want to get content clear now when it doesn't matter how good you are because of echo. Do we know? Not really. Also, why does it even have to go so far as WHM not being played anymore before change happens? Change it while people are still playing it, or else you get the problem that by the time you do fix it, nobody wants to come back to it.

Ok so, we've got balance (That's 600-750ish free DPS raidwide assuming a baseline of 15k RDPS pre echo), I'll throw bole alongside it as well since it's had some moments of glory this tier.
ASTs MP regen blows WHM into the weeds, personally I think this is a bigger issue than balance.

It's not really a bigger issue when balance is the main reason AST is seen as mandatory right now. It is a huge issue, sure, and one SE caused willingly and knowingly by simply overbuffing AST.

What other problems are there that are so bad that you've got to seemingly scream and shout about them? CU edges out Asylum but both have their benefits over each other, Synastry and Lightspeed vs DS and PoM could go either way and I suspect that's just a personal preference thing. Disable is unashamedly better than WHM Virus, but E4E makes up for that.

Did I ever mentioned those skills even once? My problem, to come full circle, lies in the fact that WHM looses 5 skills into the role pool, meaning that if you want to have all the skills you had before from your class/job alone (meaning no cross-class), you already have to use up all the slots. If you then factor in cross-class, WHM would loose skills they previously had due to this new system.
Also in that Yoshida said WHM is a "pure healer"; he said something similar before 3.0 came along, and io and behold, WHM got not a single utility skill, just healing and some DPS. In other words, if their definition of a pure healer is a healer without group utility, WHM got a huge problem since it's still the only of the three healers without any, while both other healers got sufficient healing, DPS, and utility in the form of group buffs on top. Unless WHM gets something truely great and unique in that regard with 4.0, which so far doesn't seem to be the case, WHM will have huge problems the next two years.
I further know WHM theoretically got the highest sustained DPS out of all three healers, but WHM also cannot properly utilize that because of being gimped by MP management and accuracy issues. While accuracy will likely not be a problem anymore in Stormblood, I can't see how the MP issues will be fixed, unless they severely lower MP costs on WHMs DPS spells. Also, it just blows that SoS is now a role skill, no matter how you look at it. Also, with the current Balance, even if WHM had infinite MP and no accuracy issues, it would still not be enough to pick it over one of the other healers because they are just too strong and bring things to the table WHM simply cannot offer, while not offering anything unique in turn.

And to flip the coin, I think you're missing the fact that whilst the extra HPS WHM brings might not be required at this time, but it's still a safety net that DiuAST doesn't always have. I'm half inclined to wonder if SE are viewing WHM as an easier healer to play vs the additional complexities and APM requirements of AST and SCH and are balancing it as such.

I'm repeating myself here, but I mentioned here and in another thread that I seriously doubt the extra healing might ever again be required, because SE wants all combinations of healers to be viable. However, if AST/SCH cannot clear content due to too low healing, nobody would bring this healer composition, which is something SE doesn't want to happen. Because of this, content will stay the way it is now, meaning that the only advantage WHM has, more healing power, is not an advantage at all. And safety nets don't mean anything in the top groups where everyone plays almost flawlessly most of the time, or when people know what to do. And I simply hate the argument that WHM is the healer for bad groups. It's a beautiful class and deserves better than being pigeonholed into the role of babysitter for scrub groups, sorry.

Also, I don't really care about their reasoning. All I see is cause and effect, with the effect being that WHM is slowly pushed out of meta to the point of barely being considered in top groups anymore because it doesn't offer the utility the other two classes do.
Last, I also raided as a SCH a few times. Even though my SCH was far less well-geared than my WHM back then, I never had any trouble performing, and didn't feel like I had so much more to do than as WHM, so I never understood the circle j**k about SCH being so much more complex. And yes, I did control the Faery myself, I did DPS, and I did shield when needed. Nobody died except of own failure. I still felt less stressed and almost bored than on WHM in the same situation.



To the person claiming that WHM being pushed out is a form of self-fullfilling profecy. Sorry, that's bulls. First of, WHM got some ridicule from certain ASTs way before that happened. Second, the real hysteria set in after the final buffs when AST got pushed so much ahead of WHM, and it was more than justified to be upset about that. Third, there are always people with inferiority complexes around; I remember all the hysteria about SCH being useless now because the Faery got nerfed and Lustrate being affected by Cleric's that set in right after 3.0 hit. With your reasoning, SCH should have fallen out of grace due to self-fullfilling profecy back then, too. Which quite obviously didn't happen. Nor did it happen to AST, who really had some problems back then. As someone else said already, correlation=/=causation.

Sadly, the negativity surrounding WHMs currently isn't just on the side of WHMs.

Not even quite that current; “my AST is so much better than your WHM and I can do such great things you can’t!” started over a year ago; it just spread quite a lot since then.

[Acidblood]

I'm guessing in that scenario you willingly going against a boss that deals 60HP/s of damage with one tank, one healer, and six dps is a result of your own hubris. Either that or you're assuming your second healer will be doing no healing at all, both of which are situations that are theoretically possible, though I'd imagine pretty unlikely.

Or, alternatively, you take the cross role skill that increases your healing efficacy and use it to buff your HP/s to the needed threshold, which is going to be apparently possible come SB. You know, just saying. I'd imagine there's a reason healers have a generic heal buff action now. Pointing out the obvious, as it were.

OR, assuming said actions are still available in SB, coordinating with your tank and their self heals as well! There are options. Similarly to how there's medkits in OW to help support the healers if necessary, the party can coordinate and help the healer reach the required HP/s requirement.

??? You completely missed the point... this is not OW where fights are over in seconds, skilled play can result in avoiding significant damage entirely, and any small amount of healing is just a pleasant thing to have.

FFXIV fights last for minutes, 10 of minutes in high end cases, with skill only marginally determining the minimum amount of damage you can take, and the amount of damage healed in these fights being many 10s if not 100s of times player’s health pools. So it doesn't matter what the numbers are, how many healers you have, or who else can contribute to healing; if you are below the threshold it is non-viable, and if you are significantly above the threshold it is a waste of potential.

From example: Let’s say the boss does 100 D/s, and using FFXIVs typical 2/2/4 setup...
- If WHM can heal 60 HP/s and SCH / AST can only heal 40 HP/s (to 'balance' their utility), then a group without a WHM is non-viable, and 2 WHMs is a waste of potential, leaving only WHM/AST or WHM/SCH as good combinations. Not good.
- If we increase SCH / AST healing to 50 HP/s (so WHMs are no longer needed), then since both SCH and AST bring significantly more utility, even a single WHM, much less two, is now no longer wanted (which is the current situation). Still not good.
- We can play around with any combination of giving other classes the ability to contribute to healing, but all that means is that if you don't take class A you then have to take class B, and if you do take class X, you then don't want class Y (assuming class Y had to give up something for the extra healing ability). Again, still not good.

Now let’s say we reduce WHM to 52 HP/s (so still slightly better) and give them some utility to compensate... now all combinations of healers are viable (with any two healers adding up to 100-104HP/s), all combinations bring useful utility, and thus all combinations are wanted. Problem solved.

Will there still be a 'meta'? Yes, of course, someone is always going to do the math, but now it is much more up to player’s personal preference, rather than individual encounter design and hitting a certain threshold, that determines what healers (and overall group combination) they are going to bring.

Note: It should also be pointed out that, also unlike OW, any healing threshold is going to reduce with gear, making any 'pure healer' less and less desirable as gear level increases relative to encounter level. This is however not an issue if all healers have approximately the same healing output and utility usefulness.

[javid]

your scenario were decent for conveying your point, that YOU WOULD PREFER that any combination of healers should suffice REGARDLESS the rest of the parties makeup.

I disagree with your wishes, I rather a more dynamic composition. I would very much like if a party doesn't take a whm that they'll have to get the assisted healing from combinations of other roles (tank/dps). A system like the one I described will better enforce WHM as a PURE healer.

The scenario you ended up with with whm marginally excess would CONTINUE to leave WHM out of the meta b/c.... we don't need 2HP/s more when ast/whm 100 HP/s does just fine.

Unless of course u want them to make all the healers the same.

Edit
What they can do; like i've been saying for a while now is make ast hybrid abilities just par! So ast will provide high rewarding RNG with the card system and have healing utilities that require almost machine perfect execution (77%+ efficiency usage rate) to JUST meet the healing requirements. This would impact the number of ppl that want to take ast into raiding since it won't leave as much room for error as a whm/sch combo; but it will still be RNG rewarding for the exceptional raid parities that can maintain that high 77%+ efficiency usage rating! Then to bolster ast room for error, equip other roles (DPS/tank) with abilities to facilitate (like PLD's divine viel and Arms, Mnk's mantra [if they still have it], caster's virus and apoc, etc, etc). So it will never be a question of viability ("can it be physically accomplished ") but a matter of difficulty and precision ("how precise can we execute").

Sch/whm = biggest room for healing error moderate-above avg dps (*the above avg comes from the comfort of being able to rely on the healing)
whm/ast = decent size room for healing error but above avg dps (still pretty safe but caution is warranted)
Sch /ast = a delicate room built with thin walls but above avg dps to high dps (Warning failure to properly rotate utilities will be fatal)
Ast/Ast = that 77%+ efficiency rating necessary but high dps up to unbelievable dps ( if you sneeze at the wrong time we're dead....)

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip.

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST... at which point people will still take the latter 2 instead of the former one because it'll remain easier and more dependable due to higher personal dps.

So, well be right back to square 1.

On the OTHER hand if we weaken the utility healers heals such that they can still clear casual content but need to either take the role skill to increase their healing/cooperation from their party in order to help them reach that threshold, suddenly you have a situation where not only is every healer viable, but suddenly each party has their own strengths and weaknesses, which can be overcome through a combination of player skill with their chosen class, savvy and expert usage of the party's chosen support skills, and comfort with their chosen class.

Or we can stagnate as healers and keep trying to beat the HDPS meta dead horse until SE gives in. That's an option to I guess.

[Reiryuu]

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST...

That's not entirely true. The idea is similar but different right? Take the ability Dia.

In FFXI Dia was a DoT that lowered enemy armor making it easier to hit and do damage to them. FFXIV does not really have this per se and I'm not really sure how armor affects damage in FFXIV, but just for an example and pulling numbers out of my ass here:

What if Dia was given to WHM and it did a bit of Damage over Time + a very slight debuff on the mob making it take more damage from physical attacks. We're not talking balance levels. Because Dia could constantly be kept up, it would have to be very small (<5%?), but large enough to eventually catch up to a number equivalent to balance over time when the AST can't draw them. This makes an AST who is lucky enough to draw lots of balances far superior, but it gives the whm something to offer that's consistent and reliable. Again, I don't know what the sweet spot would be for an ability like this number wise, but hopefully that makes the point of the idea made.

Perhaps you could have a similar ability that raised magical defense that overwrote Dia (and vice versa so only one could be up at a time) as well.... though I suspect the Scholar's new Libra ability might do this... anyway, that way you're still not really stepping on AST feet since AST balance affects both melee DPS and magical DPS simultaneously.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

What if Dia was given to WHM and it did a bit of Damage over Time + a very slight debuff on the mob making it take more damage from physical attacks.

Oooh, that's a thought! I'm sure that'll-

Wait, MCH already has something exactly like that in Hyper charge. There's also Trick Attack, And if we wanna get really technical, Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick...

So the implication is that they should give WHM a damage spell that causes them to take more damage right? Regardless of whether it's a DoT or not, it's still pretty much ripping off all of the above abilities in what it effectively does, making it once again a carbon copy, only this time it's copying every other role except healers!

Well, all people care about is dps, not support, so I guess such an example is natural...

Thinking about it logically, that utility would most directly mirror TA and Hyper charge, which cause the target to take 10/5% more damage for 10/22-25s every 60/120/s respectively. Assuming they went with that idea and looking at its counterparts, considering that it would be a permanent debuff in essence it would most likely increase damage taken by... .5-1%? 1.5% if we get really, really generous? That sounds like do much fun!