Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Acidblood]

I'm guessing in that scenario you willingly going against a boss that deals 60HP/s of damage with one tank, one healer, and six dps is a result of your own hubris. Either that or you're assuming your second healer will be doing no healing at all, both of which are situations that are theoretically possible, though I'd imagine pretty unlikely.

Or, alternatively, you take the cross role skill that increases your healing efficacy and use it to buff your HP/s to the needed threshold, which is going to be apparently possible come SB. You know, just saying. I'd imagine there's a reason healers have a generic heal buff action now. Pointing out the obvious, as it were.

OR, assuming said actions are still available in SB, coordinating with your tank and their self heals as well! There are options. Similarly to how there's medkits in OW to help support the healers if necessary, the party can coordinate and help the healer reach the required HP/s requirement.

??? You completely missed the point... this is not OW where fights are over in seconds, skilled play can result in avoiding significant damage entirely, and any small amount of healing is just a pleasant thing to have.

FFXIV fights last for minutes, 10 of minutes in high end cases, with skill only marginally determining the minimum amount of damage you can take, and the amount of damage healed in these fights being many 10s if not 100s of times player’s health pools. So it doesn't matter what the numbers are, how many healers you have, or who else can contribute to healing; if you are below the threshold it is non-viable, and if you are significantly above the threshold it is a waste of potential.

From example: Let’s say the boss does 100 D/s, and using FFXIVs typical 2/2/4 setup...
- If WHM can heal 60 HP/s and SCH / AST can only heal 40 HP/s (to 'balance' their utility), then a group without a WHM is non-viable, and 2 WHMs is a waste of potential, leaving only WHM/AST or WHM/SCH as good combinations. Not good.
- If we increase SCH / AST healing to 50 HP/s (so WHMs are no longer needed), then since both SCH and AST bring significantly more utility, even a single WHM, much less two, is now no longer wanted (which is the current situation). Still not good.
- We can play around with any combination of giving other classes the ability to contribute to healing, but all that means is that if you don't take class A you then have to take class B, and if you do take class X, you then don't want class Y (assuming class Y had to give up something for the extra healing ability). Again, still not good.

Now let’s say we reduce WHM to 52 HP/s (so still slightly better) and give them some utility to compensate... now all combinations of healers are viable (with any two healers adding up to 100-104HP/s), all combinations bring useful utility, and thus all combinations are wanted. Problem solved.

Will there still be a 'meta'? Yes, of course, someone is always going to do the math, but now it is much more up to player’s personal preference, rather than individual encounter design and hitting a certain threshold, that determines what healers (and overall group combination) they are going to bring.

Note: It should also be pointed out that, also unlike OW, any healing threshold is going to reduce with gear, making any 'pure healer' less and less desirable as gear level increases relative to encounter level. This is however not an issue if all healers have approximately the same healing output and utility usefulness.

[javid]

your scenario were decent for conveying your point, that YOU WOULD PREFER that any combination of healers should suffice REGARDLESS the rest of the parties makeup.

I disagree with your wishes, I rather a more dynamic composition. I would very much like if a party doesn't take a whm that they'll have to get the assisted healing from combinations of other roles (tank/dps). A system like the one I described will better enforce WHM as a PURE healer.

The scenario you ended up with with whm marginally excess would CONTINUE to leave WHM out of the meta b/c.... we don't need 2HP/s more when ast/whm 100 HP/s does just fine.

Unless of course u want them to make all the healers the same.

Edit
What they can do; like i've been saying for a while now is make ast hybrid abilities just par! So ast will provide high rewarding RNG with the card system and have healing utilities that require almost machine perfect execution (77%+ efficiency usage rate) to JUST meet the healing requirements. This would impact the number of ppl that want to take ast into raiding since it won't leave as much room for error as a whm/sch combo; but it will still be RNG rewarding for the exceptional raid parities that can maintain that high 77%+ efficiency usage rating! Then to bolster ast room for error, equip other roles (DPS/tank) with abilities to facilitate (like PLD's divine viel and Arms, Mnk's mantra [if they still have it], caster's virus and apoc, etc, etc). So it will never be a question of viability ("can it be physically accomplished ") but a matter of difficulty and precision ("how precise can we execute").

Sch/whm = biggest room for healing error moderate-above avg dps (*the above avg comes from the comfort of being able to rely on the healing)
whm/ast = decent size room for healing error but above avg dps (still pretty safe but caution is warranted)
Sch /ast = a delicate room built with thin walls but above avg dps to high dps (Warning failure to properly rotate utilities will be fatal)
Ast/Ast = that 77%+ efficiency rating necessary but high dps up to unbelievable dps ( if you sneeze at the wrong time we're dead....)

[Acidblood]

I disagree with your wishes, I rather a more dynamic composition. I would very much like if a party doesn't take a whm that they'll have to get the assisted healing from combinations of other roles (tank/dps). A system like the one I described will better enforce WHM as a PURE healer.

The scenario you ended up with with whm marginally excess would CONTINUE to leave WHM out of the meta b/c.... we don't need 2HP/s more when ast/whm 100 HP/s does just fine.

Unless of course u want them to make all the healers the same.

More dynamic? You mean by having pre-forced group compositions based on class / encounter design?

And I never said they had to all be the same (thus the 2HP/s more)... e.g. WHM can bring slightly more heals (making it bit easier to survive; 2% isn't overkill) and some unique utility / buffs, compared to AST who brings a greater flexability and range of buffs, compared to SCH who brings a unique utility (fairy) and powerful shields (which are arguably better than reactive heals, but don't stack).

And of course other classes can help, but that should be up to their role balance (e.g. PLD brings more heals / mitigation = more time for Healer DPS and less MP stress, WAR brings more personal DPS but requires generally more heals, etc.), and not balanced against the Healers (e.g. Don't have WHM? Must bring a PLD).

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST... at which point people will still take the latter 2 instead of the former one because it'll remain easier and more dependable due to higher personal dps.

No, I want WHM utility increased (and there are plenty of options, from a better Protect, to Haste, to Refresh (remove all status aliments)) and if that means a nerf on healing power then so be it. And what does personal DPS have to do with healing balance? (i.e. just because SCH does more DPS now doesn't mean that needs to remain the case).

On the OTHER hand if we weaken the utility healers heals such that they can still clear casual content but need to either take the role skill to increase their healing/cooperation from their party in order to help them reach that threshold, suddenly you have a situation where not only is every healer viable, but suddenly each party has their own strengths and weaknesses, which can be overcome through a combination of player skill with their chosen class, savvy and expert usage of the party's chosen support skills, and comfort with their chosen class.

No, we already did that in 2.0, and SCH complained that a SCH / SCH combo couldn't put out enough heals to clear Coil = WHM nerf and SCH buff... and again in 3.0, where no one played AST until they got buffed to the healing level of WHM/SCH and had untouchable utility (for WHM at least) to boot.

So yes, if SE stuck to a hard line that SCH / AST was not meant to be able to heal certain content then that may work, but history has proven twice now that they won't, so I don't see why it will be 3rd time lucky and it is always WHMs that lose out.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip.

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST... at which point people will still take the latter 2 instead of the former one because it'll remain easier and more dependable due to higher personal dps.

So, well be right back to square 1.

On the OTHER hand if we weaken the utility healers heals such that they can still clear casual content but need to either take the role skill to increase their healing/cooperation from their party in order to help them reach that threshold, suddenly you have a situation where not only is every healer viable, but suddenly each party has their own strengths and weaknesses, which can be overcome through a combination of player skill with their chosen class, savvy and expert usage of the party's chosen support skills, and comfort with their chosen class.

Or we can stagnate as healers and keep trying to beat the HDPS meta dead horse until SE gives in. That's an option to I guess.

[Reiryuu]

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST...

That's not entirely true. The idea is similar but different right? Take the ability Dia.

In FFXI Dia was a DoT that lowered enemy armor making it easier to hit and do damage to them. FFXIV does not really have this per se and I'm not really sure how armor affects damage in FFXIV, but just for an example and pulling numbers out of my ass here:

What if Dia was given to WHM and it did a bit of Damage over Time + a very slight debuff on the mob making it take more damage from physical attacks. We're not talking balance levels. Because Dia could constantly be kept up, it would have to be very small (<5%?), but large enough to eventually catch up to a number equivalent to balance over time when the AST can't draw them. This makes an AST who is lucky enough to draw lots of balances far superior, but it gives the whm something to offer that's consistent and reliable. Again, I don't know what the sweet spot would be for an ability like this number wise, but hopefully that makes the point of the idea made.

Perhaps you could have a similar ability that raised magical defense that overwrote Dia (and vice versa so only one could be up at a time) as well.... though I suspect the Scholar's new Libra ability might do this... anyway, that way you're still not really stepping on AST feet since AST balance affects both melee DPS and magical DPS simultaneously.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

What if Dia was given to WHM and it did a bit of Damage over Time + a very slight debuff on the mob making it take more damage from physical attacks.

Oooh, that's a thought! I'm sure that'll-

Wait, MCH already has something exactly like that in Hyper charge. There's also Trick Attack, And if we wanna get really technical, Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick...

So the implication is that they should give WHM a damage spell that causes them to take more damage right? Regardless of whether it's a DoT or not, it's still pretty much ripping off all of the above abilities in what it effectively does, making it once again a carbon copy, only this time it's copying every other role except healers!

Well, all people care about is dps, not support, so I guess such an example is natural...

Thinking about it logically, that utility would most directly mirror TA and Hyper charge, which cause the target to take 10/5% more damage for 10/22-25s every 60/120/s respectively. Assuming they went with that idea and looking at its counterparts, considering that it would be a permanent debuff in essence it would most likely increase damage taken by... .5-1%? 1.5% if we get really, really generous? That sounds like do much fun!

[Reiryuu]

Oooh, that's a thought! I'm sure that'll-

Wait, MCH already has something exactly like that in Hyper charge. There's also Trick Attack, And if we wanna get really technical, Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick...

So the implication is that they should give WHM a damage spell that causes them to take more damage right? Regardless of whether it's a DoT or not, it's still pretty much ripping off all of the above abilities in what it effectively does, making it once again a carbon copy, only this time it's copying every other role except healers!

Well, all people care about is dps, not support, so I guess such an example is natural...

Well, your argument was a defensive ability. I only wanted to counter with an example for one that was more offensive in nature. But I agree with you that the meta is so blind to anything that's not +DPS that anything else would be largely ignored. =/ Maybe a white wind ability that's a very slow regen + slight haste? *shrug*

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

=/ Maybe a white wind ability that's a very slow regen + slight haste? *shrug*

Well, now you're just flat out copying SCH's Fey Wind. Pretty much every type of offensive buff has already been covered by one of the other classes, so there really isn't anything they can give WHM that wouldn't be straight copying from someone else. As it is now, unless SE does something to shake up the healer meta, they'll be playing pretty much exactly the same way they have been for the last four years.

And thus, with the dps obsession, the meta stagnates further.

[Reiryuu]

*snip*

And you're being a little overobsessed with copying. Is the Arrow card with Expanded also a copy of Fey Wind? The numbers don't have to be the same. The random idea (which admittely was off the top of the head) was just something of a very slow, long lasting regen with a small haste component. You don't have to be so on edge accusing every suggestion of a blatant copy.

There's only so many ways one can play to the meta without turning it upside down and that is something I doubt SE will be able to do with the way they have set things up and design things.