Dam. meter

[Greedalox]

Bull. Before parsers, people learned to play their jobs in RPGs well and developed optimal rotations - without the assistance of parsers. Now with or without parsers, people can learn their job and learn optimal rotations without a parser or some ProBro telling them what to do - because some people actually pay attention to what the game tells them, and some people want to improve, so they do.

I'm going to ask you who you think does all the work in optimizing how a class is "played and learned well" so that people without parsers don't have to use them in the first place. Because let me tell you, people have been using Pen and Paper math/ Programs and sharing the information within gaming communities since the dawn of MMO's.

So whether or not you believe you need a parser to learn your class, remember that the information and rotations shared between players are derived from number crunching, whether is be paper or program.

There's more to damage/rotation/learning than reading some tooltips. It helps! Don't get me wrong, but it's pretty misleading to say that all the information is front faced.

[Kosmos992k]

I'm going to ask you who you think does all the work in optimizing how a class is "played and learned well" so that people without parsers don't have to use them in the first place. Because let me tell you, people have been using Pen and Paper math/ Programs and sharing the information within gaming communities since the dawn of MMO's.

So whether or not you believe you need a parser to learn your class, remember that the information and rotations shared between players are derived from number crunching, whether is be paper or program.

There's more to damage/rotation/learning than reading some tooltips. It helps! Don't get me wrong, but it's pretty misleading to say that all the information is front faced.

I disagree, the information needed is in the batle logs, and the skill information, and especially the real world performance. Unless people are simply not watching how much damage they do, they can't help but learn how their skills perform during combat.

I've said before, and will say again that I can see a role for parsers in end-game/hardcore/savage difficulty content because of the tighter DPS checks, I am not doubting that. But I would contend that you can get to within about 85% of optimal by actually learning your job, paying attention to the game and battle log. Not everyone can do this, and even with a parser very, very few can hit the level of perfection required to maintain an optimal rotation for more than a single series, the timings needed are too tight, and conditions in battle will force corrections and other changes that prevent players from hitting that perfect rotation.

I do feel though that players who have mastered their job and can hit around about 85% of optimal damage with their play, will be able to improve in end-game, perhaps even through the use of a damage meter or other tool.

However most of the time this subject is discussed the most vehement criticism of players and demand for parsers comes from posters who describe others as if they are doing nothing more than auto attack damage. A parser can't and won't help such players. Nor will having a specific number for their DPS as a comparison make them see shame for their performance.

Lastly. I am well aware that there is a player community that theory crafts rotations and that they did so before the advent of parsers and they continue to do so with the assistance of the data derived from game logs (however it's derived). But I am also aware that outside of that community there are a lot of very good players who learned to play their job/role/class in whichever game without reference to all of that theory crafting and data.

Note, I am not saying you can learn your rotation from just reading tooltips. I am saying you can do it by reading that information, understanding it, putting it into practice in-game and watching your damage numbers - even reviewing battle logs, and by trying different things and really learning to play that job. There is a lot of difference between simply reading tool tips and spending months playing and improving your craft (how well you play your job/role) through practice, practice, practice.

[Arrius]

Also, back then in the older mmos, performing bad and dying was quite punishing compared to the 'holding hand/everything is fine approach' current titles do.

XP loss and even level downs were possible, significant durability loss on gear with finite lifetime was common, resurrection often came with a huge cost of condition(/vitality) restoration, magic casting (before 'cast bars' were the norm) could be interrupted by the slightest attacks whenever it did damage or not, hitting under 25% of your max HP would start slowing you down and made clutch escapes impossible.

Servers didn't had matchmaking like today, so your reputation decided whenever you are getting invited into the big raid or being a 'Persona non grata'

And now? You hit up a mender and 'repair all'. Done. Nothing valuable was lost with the exception of maybe 300 gil and no lessons were learned for NoobDragoon#51 who kept falling off the edge in titan nm, because the consequences for underperforming have become a non issue. Was just another faceless player you might never see again in the dungeon finder.

[Kosmos992k]

Also, back then in the older mmos, performing bad and dying was quite punishing compared to the 'holding hand/everything is fine approach' current titles do.

XP loss and even level downs were possible, significant durability loss on gear with finite lifetime was common, resurrection often came with a huge cost of condition(/vitality) restoration, magic casting (before 'cast bars' were the norm) could be interrupted by the slightest attacks whenever it did damage or not, hitting under 25% of your max HP would start slowing you down and made clutch escapes impossible.

And today? You hit up a mender and 'repair all'. Done. Nothing valuable was lost with the exception of maybe 300 gil and no lessons were learned for NoobDragoon#51 who kept falling off the edge in titan nm, because the consequences for underperforming have become a non issue.

That very much depends on the player. I feel bad if there is even a death, never mind a wipe. When I heal, even more so. My wife gets very stressed if anyone even get's close to death during a fight. Why? Because we care not only how well we perform for our own satisfaction, but how well we contribute to the team so as not to let the team down. A lot of what you and others are talking about relates more to the way people act and react, and how they view their performance, than it does with actual performance.

You don't need big XP penalties or lots gear or whatever to punish you in order to feel bad and want to do better, you just need a sense of pride in how you play and contribute to the team.

[Arrius]

You don't need bix XP penalties or lots gear or whatever to punish you in order to feel bad and want to do better, you just need a sense of pride in how you play and contribute to the team.

I edited a bit above, so just as an info.

Of course, people will try to 'get gud' on their own behalf, but back then the consequences were severe enough for even less skillfull players to get motivated to think about their classes and how they can get better.