Coils of Bahamut... and its inconsistent challenge level.

[Lambdafish]

I disagree!! Nerf Pharos Sirius. Nerf the bees in Amdapor Keep! Nerf Steps of Faith! Nerf Weeping City! Nerf Final Steps of Faith! Nerf Aurum Vale! Nerf The Vault! Nerf! Nerf! Nerf! Ever since PS and AK, the challenge level of EX dungeons has gone down and down from all the cries of "it's too hard". They are asking for a cupcake game.

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

[aleph_null]

This is the kicker, the devs actually listen and do nerf these pieces of content. I loved Pharos Sirius pre nerf, I loved Steps of faith pre nerf. I thought they represented true end game casual content until the nerf. Thankfully 3.3 was one of the best patches ever in terms of difficulty, weeping city was pushed so hard by the community to be kept the way it was and I felt that Nidhogg story actually provided a surprising challenge the first time around. Shame that mentality didn't stay though...

Just need to get those dungeons back up to vault difficulty and I will be happy.

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

[Lambdafish]

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard? The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

[aleph_null]

I said difficulty akin to the vault... Is that really too hard?

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The thing is that having faceroll dungeons actually causes a lot of problems with the game. It's like if you teach someone to ride a bike, then stick stabilisers on the bike for 6 months, how good are they really going to be at riding the bike after those 6 months, and how dependent will they be on the stabilisers? (wonky analogy but you get the point)

Good point, though I'd still prefer if they gate contents by using harder solo instances or story trials, or even require completion of the correlated stone sky sea trial before queuing into ex/savage via DF/RF (make it such that when you clear a stone sky sea trial, you unlock everything else that has lower dps requirements, so it won't be too much of a hassle).

[Vidu]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

[aleph_null]

It made PUGs wipe because they ignored mechanics - not killing adds and other, very simple stuff. It wasnt actually difficult - it simply required you to pay a bit of attention to the content and the mechanics.

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes frequently. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

I see, I only ran vault a few times a long time ago so I can't really recall much of it. I do remember moving the boss to dodge the knights at one of the bosses though. Aurum vale didn't strike me as a hard dungeon (it is kinda long and takes a while to clear, but not really hard), but probably because I'm usually the tank so it's less risk of wiping at the second boss (dodging cleaves and circular aoe). Ironically what aurum vale taught me the most was carefully pulling mobs so you won't lure too many, which is kinda useless in every other dungeon/trial/raid in the game lol.

Anyway let's stop here, we're getting too far out of topic.

[Lambdafish]

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

I go back to my point about the bike, we want to improve player mentality regarding paying attention. The problem with Pharos Sirius actually wasn't that it was too hard at the time (see vidu's post), it was that players were choosing the other dungeons over it to grind tomestones because they were the path of least resistance, and significantly easier. If all dungeons were brought to a higher baseline, alongside a hall of intermediate and better clarity from the battle system, I believe we would see an improvement in players.

I'd rather not dumb down the playerbase because communicating with players and having dynamic interactions (maybe going as far as wiping every now and then) is too bothersome for you. The best dungeon experiences I have had are the ones where we have been handicapped in some way and we need to actually put some thought in.

[Vidu]

That's precisely my point, if a lot of pugs wipe due to whatever mechanics/dps check/heal check/positioning/anything that matters, it'll be bothersome to do the roulettes everyday unless you run with a premade party. I like challenging contents, I want harder ex/savage contents, but harder expert roulette (with pugs) is the last thing I want lol.

I understand what you're saying and also why you're saying it - and to a degree I agree: I dont want to constantly wipe in day to day content either. But I'm not sure if we're doing ourselves a favour by requesting this content to made literally faceroll easy since that also means that the content is very, very boring.
We're not talking failing Savage-like mechanics here. We're literally talking "failing to kill an add because dps couldnt be bothered to switch targets"

[Lambdafish]

It has been a while since I last ran vault, but even though I wasn't there for pharos pre-nerf I was under the impression that it was hard enough to make pugs wipe, from what I read. Weeping city was ok since it's something you run once a week, so 1-2 wipes would be bearable, but 1-2 wipes on average in something I run daily, yeah I'd rather not. I don't remember if vault was that hard or not though.

The vault is nowhere near as hard as Pharos Sirius was, and even then it was only really one boss that got nerfed (the first one). The problem with the boss is that he hit a bit hard, and the strategy wasn't all that clearly telegraphed, which led to wipes. This was a design problem, not a difficulty problem, but the motivation of the devs was still the same. The vault is a different story, wipes are not that frequent, but the dungeon is demanding on all players, and actually feels like what you would expect from an endgame dungeon (see also: Aurum vale/Amdapor Keep pre nerf/Wanderers Palace)

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

To be perfectly honest I'd rather have faceroll dungeons for expert/60 roulettes. Those dungeons are (kinda) meant to be run on a daily basis when you're early into a raid cycle, so putting challenging mechanics may actually have negative impact on everyone, if they become too bothersome or difficult that subpar pugs take either very long to clear or just outright unable to clear them. Of course there should be a sweet spot between interesting/challenging and troublesome/annoying, but for something you run everyday it's probably a very thin line. I'm fine with higher difficulty on story trials or even solo encounters, or even new type of challenging light party contents, but I don't really want a hard expert roulette.

I hate to double post, but I can't ignore this.


This is a very serious issue with current endgame dungeon content. The devs, if not Yoshi P himself share this mindset that the "daily level" content shouldn't be too challenging, so they keep the bar low, but this in turn makes for content that quickly gets boring. So they try interesting visuals, but the novelty of those fades and we're left with more of the same. So they try to throw a curveball with a little difficulty in the form of an old mechanic with a new coat of paint, but now people who are used to easy content, or worse, have avoided challenging content don't know how to handle it or adapt. (Side Note: The "Acceleration Bomb" in Ozma and the second boss of Baelsar's Wall's mine attack are both effectively the Blighted Bouquet mechanic from Turn 6, minus the instant kill. The same type of "stop and go" mechanic appears in A10S as well)

This is where the camp is split. For those of us who did push ourselves to face the challenge before, we adapt faster and have less issue with it. But for those who simply want things to remain easy or unchallenging, suddenly level 50 raid mechanics in a level 60 dungeon are "too hard" and people cry for nerfs, unaware that you're already dealing with simplified mechanics, many of which now have large telegraph markers where they once didn't. Things can only get so easy before they're just disproportionate or not even worth the time put into them. And the easier they get, the faster they become boring. Then it becomes a no-win situation for both players and devs. Devs can't challenge players because they don't know and don't want challenge, and players become bored with continuously low-bar content.

This may step on toes to say this, but if you want a better game, YOU (players in general) need to get better.