Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[DaikiKiyoshi]

As numerous people in this thread have already explained in great detail, wanting Ex Primals to be put back in the RF has NOTHING to do with discrimination against new players. It has everything to do with the fact that the raid finder is currently the only interface with the option to filter out RUDE, DISRESPECTFUL, TIME WASTING individuals who have no idea how a fight works and join a party of people who state, VERY CLEARLY beforehand, that they are looking for fellow players who have completed it already and can farm it multiple times. These are people who are looking to enjoy the game on their own right now and not wanting to teach WHICH THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH!!! So the newbie joins their party (already disrespectful), doesn't speak up (adding more insult to injury), everyone gets pissed off and the party disbands. No one had fun and everyones time was wasted.

So yes, either the trials need to go back into both the RF and DF or the option to filter newbies out of farm parties in the PF needs to become an option just like RF currently has. And to everyone saying "ZOMG you filthy elitists just want to keep all the new scrubs out of content, you hate them and are being toxic to them" and "How are newbies supposed to learn if they get shunned from content like this??" Well ask yourself for a second, who is the more toxic person? The one who asks beforehand for people with experience or the person who ignores their reasonable request and trolls everyone? And as for how newbies are supposed to learn without vets to teach them? Well that's simple as well!!! We so called "vets" were once newbies ourselves and spent HOURS beating our heads into the wall wiping multiple times to learn these trials ourselves before they got nerfed and we didn't have any vets to teach us the mechanics!! If we could do it the newbies can too!

TL;DR Yes we need an option to filter out the trash.


/endrant


P.S.

That's how the system works right now, with duty finder and party finder as the only options. If you add the raid finder with a "only people who have cleared this content" option, there will be some people (not you) who would have used the duty finder but will instead use the option, thus reducing the pool of good players available to help new players. Thus there will be less "people who share their version of fun (as in: learning the fight)" queuing.

Also the more I read in this thread, the more I wonder - does anyone actually farm in the RF? Isn't the point of farming to do the content over and over, which is much more suited to the party finder? Are we even arguing about things that actually happen (on either side of the debate)?

Paragraph 1: Sounds like a personal problem. Vets aren't here to teach newbies, we are here to have fun just like they are. We have zero obligation to assist anyone yet sometimes we still do out of the kindness of our hearts. They should be grateful for what they get. If you are concerned about people using it to filter newbies out of MSQ content simply don't allow the "No Bonus" option to be selected for things like MSQ dungeons and Roulettes.

Paragraph 2: Yes people do farm in the RF. I got my first ever Soph Ex clear in the RF and many many successful clears after that because after I finally cleared it with other newbies at mt own level I had a good enough understanding of the fight that I could farm it. Everything after that was cleaning up little mistakes here and there. After I cleared it I was able to select the option to join only other people who had cleared it as well and our success rate only went up after that. It is a good system that I found was largely beneficial to everyone and was only decried by the trolls and people looking for carries.

[bswpayton]

As numerous people in this thread have already explained in great detail, wanting Ex Primals to be put back in the RF has NOTHING to do with discrimination against new players. It has everything to do with the fact that the raid finder is currently the only interface with the option to filter out RUDE, DISRESPECTFUL, TIME WASTING individuals


/endrant

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

[HyoMinPark]

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

It's still two months. It's not like next week 4.0 is dropping, so let's just go ahead and remove these perceived "restrictions" on content that is current. People are still farming birds even now. Because RNG is a cruel mistress. It's not like everyone that cleared now has a bird, and therefore won't be doing this content anymore.

And if this is the system they implement, not giving us DF options to select Duty Complete/Incomplete, then, come 4.0 and every other subsequent patch with new Ex content, there will be this very same issue again. With the very same threads posted here. It's not going to go away just because Heavensward is ending. It'll just shift to the next expansion, and the next patch.

Have a little foresight and try to see what complications can arise in the future for decisions like this. And really, that can go beyond FFXIV to life in general, so it's not "it's just a game, that doesn't matter here."

[DaikiKiyoshi]

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

Actually yes I would love for ARR Extreme Primals to be added to the Raid Finder as well. I think all Extreme Trials and Savage Raids should be in the RF as they are the most challenging content in the game that, let's face it, the majority of players are not cut out for. If I want to take the time (which I do on occasion) to join learning parties for ex trials and spend 90 minutes wiping to teach newbies how to do a trial or raid I will. But when it comes time for me to have some fun myself and actually clear the thing for my loot I don't want to deal with trolls trying to sneak their way in. The newbies always have the option to learn the content with other newbies like I had to when it first came out. I don't see why they should get special preference now just because the content is dated.

[bswpayton]

Actually yes I would love for ARR Extreme Primals to be added to the Raid Finder as well. I think all Extreme Trials and Savage Raids should be in the RF as they are the most challenging content in the game that,.

Because you guys are talkin like this is a majority of the playerbase and its not , Im sure you can count on your hands how many times a player thats never cleared said content has joined your farm party. I have cleared every hw primal Ive done but zur , and have yet to try nidhogg I wouldnt join a farm party myself simply because I know Im not a robot and I can make mistakes and Id rather not even bother than deal with some perfectionist that thinks everyone is a perfect preforming robot in a video game. So you want them to change a feature for these handful of instances where someone sneaks in the cracks. The feature is still there, its just been removed because its the end of the expansion.

You guys will have things your way when the two storm blood primals come out back to your filtered rf. So again two months is nothing for those whom havent cleared it when you have had six months are more of the rf filter. Im pretty bad at math but I know that six plus months is more than two months of these things still being relevant and being put in the df. I dont hear raiders coming on here saying stop nerfing alex so other people cant clear it, no they dont care because its over and done with.

This does not take away any chance to bird farm at all if anything like I said bird farming will be very easy if youd like to wait for this df thing to pass on and get your bird in two months. People who prefer df have had to wait way longer so I guess this is just a case of too bad just like someone said if a learning party doesnt fill up to bad you waited to late. The game cant please everyone and Id def say the cards have been in the favor of bird farmers long enough its not everyone elses fault that you cant accept a change for two months.

@HyoMinPark
You know that things will go back to normal with the two new primals that we get in sb so why is this bothering you, have those whom like df better not have to wait for this feature to happen. So whats wrong with everyone else who has had things in rf all this time having to wait til they can have things how they want it again?

And as far as the above post Ive taken plenty of advice on the forums some of yours to , Ive made my learning parties Ive cleared stuff etc. I did those Arr primals sync Im just refering to what the norm is as far as what the community decides what will happen and what will not happen. And the fact is the community will not run the content sync as they are now and we both are well aware of that. With my other statement I should of clarified, when I said I woudl bird farm those are only things that I had cleared before sync. The reason I would not do coil before is the opportunity to do it sync isnt there while the chance to do an arr primal sync was there even if it was rare should have clarified Im not hypocrite.

[Vidu]

Because you guys are talkin like this is a majority of the playerbase and its not

If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

We are not asking to remove the "I havent cleared it yet"-queue - we're asking for a second queue option, being "I have cleared this". And if people want to spend their freetime in a game farming instead of teaching/helping/carrying new people they should have every damn right and the means to do so!
You really need to stop thinking that newbie-clears and their wish to do this content snyched are more important than "vet"-people who would like their bird now.
I might want to spend those last two months before SB farming for my birds because there is nothing else to do and I would unsub without that. (This doesnt apply to me anymore, because I got my birds now - but I still see enough farm-parties, so telling those people "hey, just wait 2 months and go and help new people now because their kills are really more important" is a horrible attitude)
You keep saying that you want to get those kills the proper way - guess what: I wanted to get my birds the proper way. Which is why I had to farm them now - it might be more difficult to get a syched-learning-party once unsched is an option, but its going to be impossible to farm this content syched once unsyched is an option. So your argument only works when you consider the new person more important than anyone else...

Lets go back to the swimming pool and the two lanes that are for people who want to serious exersice while the rest of the pool is for everyone who wants to just fool around and paddle a bit - those people who want to seriously exersice arent being mean monsters, even if they keep focused on their goal of swimming lanes when the playful people need one more person for water-volleyball and our swimmer chooses to stay focused on their goal and not join them.

That's all fine from your perspective, but it's ignoring why these mechanics exist. Square Enix is trying to keep the game healthy. Having players who flatly refuse to help new players is extremely unhealthy for a game like this. That's why there are so many mechanics designed to incentivize helping players.

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong regarding the raid finder. But your attitude is literally useless to Square Enix, and they're not going to cater to it because it doesn't help grow the game at all. If you want to convince them to give you what they want, you need to provide a reason for them to do so. Selfishness is not a good way to convince people to help you.

How is forcing people to help anymore helpful and healthy? How is saying "Hey, you can go and play football, but only if you take your little brother with you" helpful?

Dont get me wrong, I understand and know why those mechanics are in place - but you cant make people help other people. By not giving them a choice its basically telling them "Hey, your intrests are worth less to us than those of the person who just joined the game three weeks ago" - and how is that a good attitude?

And its not even helpful for new people - not every person who'd like to farm has the patience or the skill to teach new people. They'll get upset, toxic, leave immidiatly or after one wipe... giving those people the option to stay out of learning groups is helpful for both sides. Because then only people who are fine with a slower pace will queue up for not-cleared.

[bswpayton]

If its not a majority of people who'd use the option in the first place, what harm is done?


It may not take away our chance not to have the cleared-option in RF, but its making farming less convenient and more annyoing.

The thing about it is we agree on what your saying I have seen first hand in learning parties on zur where dps is so low from dps that not only do u see soar but u see it twice and demons claw. And this is in parties with just one tank, so I get the whole filter part of what your saying players that can perfectly do this content like its a puzzle with ease and finish and destroy it in 5 mins should be able to do this.

Where we disagree is that to me , the time for the filter is up you wont it to continue and it will continue just on new stuff no longer the old stuff and I'm 100 percent ok with that. Because the fact of the matter is that farmers have had things their way ever sense rf was released. Even week one of zur coming out people where already saying no the fight Id say even two days after it was released which is fine. But what Im sayin is that its very rare that people that are a bit slower to grasp on to mechanics etc get a chance to do it in ways they would like. So both sides have arguments to pretty much the same thing , but the difference is , is that farmers have had their filter for 6 months. So now its gone are others to feel bad about this? If a new person posted today in this forums I'm having trouble gettin a que for this or that primal what would be the very next post under it be well why dont you make a learning party.

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them , and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

LIke the commercial goes gota be quicker than that , but seriously with the new expansion everyone pretty much has a 100 percent shot at gettin a bird face roll the unsync content 99 times and you have your bird. Its not even rng based like the arr ponies are, but lets be honest someone tryin to make a learning group for a primal or raid thats unsyncable now id say they have about a 5 percent or less chance of that happening. So I think yea in the beginning sure have your filters in the mist, but now SE is just tryin to keep subs and make as many people happy as possible and thats why everything is in the df now more access for everyone the filter will return in sb for those who want it to regain their happiness.

[Vidu]

So I say to you or anyone else on here why dont you make a no bonus party pf is full of them ,and if someone sneaks in disband just like a learning party would do the same if things arent gettin anywhere. Its as simple as that , nobody is gona feel sorry for someone late to content and just now doing it people could careless so why expect sympathy from those who are still tryin to clear content and are happy its in duty finder when for so long you have had the perfect set up. You even said yourself you have your birds from ur methods and it worked, so just like people dont care about someone tryin to learn a fight should of been there when everyone else was learning I say to the farmers should of gotten all your birds like Vidu did before they went to Df.

Here is the thing though about you telling me "just go and make your farm party in PF" - I can say the same to anyone who wants to learn the fight: "just go and make your learning party inf PF"

PF is offering the option to form the party that suits our needs for both of us. And you're obviously fine with that.
DF, on the other hand is not offering that option for both of us - which is what I'd like to see. Currently DF is only benefitting those who are okay with most likely only seeing the first phase of a fight. Anyone else cant use the DF, making a tool thats supposed to make our game-experience better and easier, completly useless.
DF should be for everyone, right? At least thats what you guys seem to say - but at the same time you're making DF only for first timers who dont care how far they'll get in the fight.

I'm of the opinion that both sides - newbies and vets - should be able to use both tools - DF and PF - at their convenience. Currently you guys agree that its fine that both sides are using the PF in the way that suits them (as in: making learning and no-bonus-farm-parties). Why is asking for that in DF such a horrible thing?
Why does DF has to be a place for everyone who is to lazy to make a learning party? Why is it okay for farmers to exclude themself in PF, but not in DF? Why can I use both tools when I want to see/learn the fight - but am limited to the more inconvenient one as soon as I want to farm? When it didnt has to be that way!

[Brill_]

I
Having the cleared-option in the DF isnt taking away the chance of people who want to learn the fight either - stop making it sound as if there is one newbie and 99 vety queueing and if they're all gone, newbie is all alone and cant learn the fight (unless they go into PF and make a learning party for it)

That's exactly whats happening. In RF, if you haven't cleared, the learning queues never pop(or take hours). How are people supposed to learn if they can't even get into the content?

[Vidu]

That's exactly whats happening. In RF, if you haven't cleared, the learning queues never pop(or take hours). How are people supposed to learn if they can't even get into the content?

By using PF for learning parties, for example.

And before you tell me that the farm people have to make their farm-parties in PF, let me rephrase your statment their: How are people supposed to farm if they're getting people who cant even clear the content?

DF should be for everyone, yet it isnt. While yes, everyone can queue for it - not everyone can queue for it with their intrest being represented.