Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

So I think the bigger question is , for everyone that still thinks this is a horrible thing , why do you think that devs decided to make this change? What reason do you think that the devs possibly could of had in mind to remove these out of raid finder to put them in df with the other old primals?

I know why they've made this change - it is, indeed, to favour those who are late to the party by telling everyone who would like to do those primals in DF "Either you deal with teaching those people or you cant do this content [in DF]"
I know and understand their reason behind this - infact, I'm pretty sure we all do. But obviously not all of us agree on this, so its perfectly legit to speak up and tell the devs "Hey, listen, there are people who would like you to do it differently!". Thats the point of making suggestions in a forum. Dont you think those people who want female gear unlocked for males (or at least the equival amount of glamour options for males) know why thats not the case yet?
Do you really think everyone here, who would like to keep a clear-only-queue is to stupid to understand that SE is throwing those who cant be bothered to make a learning party a huge bone? And not only are they throwing this bone by taking it away from the farm-people, no, they're throwing this bone with the assumption that now more experienced people will queue to help, because they have no other option anymore.

This is not "until now the queue was only open for farm-people and now its open for new people aswell" - this is "we remove the farm-queue, so people who want to farm either give up on DF or are forced to help".
Both groups had queues until now. Now there is no queue for farm-people anymore. And if those people dont voice their intrest to keep a farm-queue because they want to do something for the next two months until there is new content, nothing will change because it will appear as if there is no intrest in that to begin with - when there is.

Thank you last two posters you just pretty much said maybe in a nicer way what ive been saying this whole time but yet the people in this thread still want accept the idea that it is a last stitch attempt to make things easier for everyone.

How can you say its easier for everyone now? It clearly is not easier for anyone who wants to farm the content... And people ARE still farming this content. You complained about how there are only farm-parties in PF (even when you've been shown that thats not the case), so there is clearly a huge intrest in farming this content. Yet this change made it more difficult for that group of people...

[bswpayton]

I know why they've made this change - it is, indeed, to favour those

Well it just really makes no sense to put them in after the two months is up , because then they would do two things at once put them in duty finder then also unsync them all. You keep sayin that there are two options Vidu but we both know that its only one option and thats to make a learning party only (this is the only option that someone who doesnt have 10 hours to sit around and wait for a que has). You commented on my very thread I made on the subject I tried queing for sep before I cleared it , in rf, thordan as well sometimes even with friends not a single person joined not even one.

And with cross server party finder Im actually pretty sure rf itself was prob not even used at all hardly it was pretty much known that it was dead once cross server party finder came out. But I would say that maybe SE knows that some people would like to get clears while the content is somewhat relevant and that the filter had been in place long enough on this older content.

I dont really see them changing this simply because of the small window of time it is, because the fact is the two sides just simply arent going to agree on this. So the devs are in a sense giving us both a set amount of time to be accommodated because carry aside, its kind of annoying that every time you would like to do some content you have to broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center.

Thats one of the things I love best about duty finder its anonymous I dont have to worry about, someone knowing who I am and where I am from etc. And Ive also seen others say similar things as well, so its more than just oh we are lookin for a carry duty finder is just alot more convenient. So its not all about just forcing all these great skill players to come in to save the day for everyone its really just a feature that people like as well just like you enjoy the rf. So we have essentially both getting accommodated those whom like df are just getting less time to enjoy which is fine at least its something.

[Vidu]

I dont really see them changing this simply because of the small window of time it is, because the fact is the two sides just simply arent going to agree on this. So the devs are in a sense giving us both a set amount of time to be accommodated becausecarry aside, its kind of annoying that every time you would like to do some content you have to broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center.

Stop right there! "its kind of annoying that every time you would like to do some content you have to broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center." - I need to quote this again, because its so beautiful!
Yes, yes, it is annyoing - but guess what? It is annyoing for everyone - for the learning person as much as for the farming person.

Again: RF/DF wasnt locked for people who hadnt cleared it. Believe me, there was an option to queue for this content without having the kill! And if that didnt work, the reason for that is that not enough people at the time you were queueing wanted to do that content - its the same reason DPS has longer queuetimes: Not enough tanks and healers want to do that content right now. Should everyone change to tank/healer now?
RF wasnt blocked for those who didnt have the clear - mean, mean vets didnt stood before it and told them "Ey, sorry, you cant queue here!". Mean, mean vets simply decided "No, today, I dont want to teach this content, so I wont queue up for it" - if they queued up for the more convenient farm-option, joined a PF-party or did something totally different, isnt relevant.

Even if they wont change it now (I dont expected that), it is still very important to tell them "Hey, there are people who'd like to clear-checkbox to stay permanently - at least as an option in PF or even as an option in DF, because we'd like to able to queue with like-minded people, who want to farm aswell"

Making a PF for a farm group is as inconvenient for me as it is for you to make a PF for a learning party.
Yet you can use the more convenient tool - the DF - to potentially reach your goal. I cant.

I dont see them changing it for the current EX-primals either anymore, its to late for that - it is not to late for SB-Primals and making the devs aware that there are people out here who would like a farm-option in DF and a clear-filter in PF, to make farming easier. And that they would like this option to stay, instead of having a timeframe and getting told after that "Sorry, you're to late for farming now - but just in time to clear this for the first time! Oh... you did that already? And want the rewards now? Mmh... thats a bit unfortunate, you see, by now its only important that everyone gets their clear... so... you can go and help people? It will take way, way more time than farming would have and often you might not even get a clear, but thats really more important now!"

[DaikiKiyoshi]

Thats one of the things I love best about duty finder its anonymous I dont have to worry about, someone knowing who I am and where I am from etc. And Ive also seen others say similar things as well, so its more than just oh we are lookin for a carry duty finder is just alot more convenient. So its not all about just forcing all these great skill players to come in to save the day for everyone its really just a feature that people like as well just like you enjoy the rf. So we have essentially both getting accommodated those whom like df are just getting less time to enjoy which is fine at least its something.

Ahhh anonymity. The great tool of tools for lazy insidious trolls who want to try and hide from any and all consequences of their actions. Got any better arguments? Cause that one falls flat on its face.

[bswpayton]

Ahhh anonymity. The great tool of tools for lazy insidious trolls who want to try and hide from any and all consequences of their actions. Got any better arguments? Cause that one falls flat on its face.

tools ? I like privacy in real life so I am also very protective over my in game character as well and dont have time for nonsense in a video game. Especially if all that can be done is verbal arguments over a screen so whats the point. I just prefer to be anonymous by everyone's standards here the only thing I couldnt que for in the farm parties is zurvan. I have cleared everything else Ive done, but I personally refuse to ever join a party with ignorance in its description those are the tools not me. I can get into with someone but I prefer not to so I avoid such parties, and no its not because of the challenge, its the players.

This game is great but all the players just simply are not, I dont even use msq roullete for this same type of ignorance that seems to harvest itself in this game. Anonymous: the state of an individual's personal identity, or personally identifiable information, being publicly unknown. This is what some people like everyone doesnt want everyone knowing who they are , or would like to be able to select the ones whom do has nothing to do with being a tool. Tools are the ones who bird farm and post up in ideyshire on their mounts to show off while they are afk for hours thats not me.

[HyoMinPark]

Well it just really makes no sense to put them in after the two months is up , because then they would do two things at once put them in duty finder then also unsync them all.

Honestly, it would make more sense to just do both simultaneously, because it's a "kill two birds with one stone" sort of deal.

You keep sayin that there are two options Vidu but we both know that its only one option and thats to make a learning party only (this is the only option that someone who doesnt have 10 hours to sit around and wait for a que has). You commented on my very thread I made on the subject I tried queing for sep before I cleared it , in rf, thordan as well sometimes even with friends not a single person joined not even one.

To be fair, Raid Finder only became a thing around the time of Sophia's release, and there was no cross-server Party Finder. With Sophia Ex being the most current primal--the shiny new toy--of course more individuals (solo and grouped) are going to queue for the newest content compared to Thordan Ex, especially since Thordan is a difficult primal to both PUG and PF sometimes (because people want to either ignore mechanics, or can't seem to understand how they work). Shortly after, the cross-server Party Finder was released, along with Zurvan, and it was easier than ever to make learning/farm groups for any and all Ex primals. Raid Finder, essentially, "died" then.

One patch cycle with one Ex primal is not a good way of judging the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a system. Maybe if the cross-server PF hadn't been released until 4.0, there would have been more success in Raid Finder. Maybe not. It's difficult to say. But with such a short window of viability, you can't really judge the effectiveness of it.

And with cross server party finder Im actually pretty sure rf itself was prob not even used at all hardly it was pretty much known that it was dead once cross server party finder came out.

See above.

But I would say that maybe SE knows that some people would like to get clears while the content is somewhat relevant and that the filter had been in place long enough on this older content.

The filters were never there to "prevent" people without clears from getting them. And the removal of them cannot guarantee that they'll get them now. I don't really understand why people think that those without clears for certain content should be allowed to queue for Duty Complete just because they think it's more "convenient"--be it for faster queues or just to get carried by 7 other people. If you haven't unlocked the content, you can't queue for it. If you aren't the appropriate level for content, you can't queue for it. So this really isn't any different: you haven't completed the duty, therefore you cannot select the option to queue as if you have. (Note how I did NOT say that you cannot select the option to queue period.)

I dont really see them changing this simply because of the small window of time it is, because the fact is the two sides just simply arent going to agree on this.

Of course they aren't. In a perfect world, they would, but this is not a perfect world. However, that doesn't give either side the right to say that their needs and their time are more important/valuable than the other side's, and that one needs to bend to the will of the other.

So the devs are in a sense giving us both a set amount of time to be accommodated because carry aside, its kind of annoying that every time you would like to do some content you have to broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center.

Thats one of the things I love best about duty finder its anonymous I dont have to worry about, someone knowing who I am and where I am from etc.

....what? I don't...

You do realize that EVEN IN DUTY FINDER, you are not completely anonymous, right? Especially now that they've added the Contacts function. I could queue into Cape Westwind with you, and once I get out, look and see "Oh, this person is from this server." And even before Contacts was a thing, people could still search for you on the Lodestone. By name. Which they saw while in the duty with you, be it through Party Finder or Duty Finder. Your name doesn't show up as "Healer #1" or "DPS #3" in Duty Finder (strictly talking about PvE here, not PvP, since I know other alliances are only shown as the job, no names--EDIT: As clarified by Vidu, afterwards you can still see the character names as well as scores; I forgot about that because I don't PvP that often, so thank you! ).

If you choose not to "broadcast your whole name and server all across your data center," and instead rely on the "anonymity" of DF, well, that's your choice. Doesn't mean that the other tools available for queuing for/clearing/farming content (RF and PF) are any less viable, or any more restrictive/exclusive. To be honest, Party Finder can be a whole lot more restrictive than Raid Finder.

Raid Finder is basically split between:
--Duty Incomplete/Practice - for those who have not cleared, or are learning
--Duty Complete - for those that have cleared, and want to clear some more or farm

Party Finder has even more restrictions that party leaders can add to a group, such as:
--Restrictions on ilvl - they can easily place the minimum ilvl required to join their PF above the minimum required for the duty. And some do this for speed kills, or under the (false) impression that higher ilvl = better players/more skilled players.
--Restrictions on job - Party leaders can opt for solo tank/solo healer/6 DPS groups. Party leaders can opt for DRK/WAR or AST/SCH combinations rather than letting whoever join. Party leaders can also exclude DPS jobs. I've seen quite a few that have the ranged physical limited to MCH or BRD (not both), or the ranged magical DPS limited to SMN, no BLM (probably for the raise). I've seen groups that exclude MNK because of their lack of raid utility/synergy compared to say, a DRG (Battle Litany/Disembowel--synergy with those who deal piercing damage) or NIN (Trick Attack/Goad--synergy with WAR for slashing damage).
--Server-only parties: People can opt to keep their groups to their server only, and not allow "outsiders" from other servers.
--Password-protected parties - Party leaders can set a password to only let those select few they want in their party join. That's pretty damn exclusive, far more exclusive than just "cleared" or "not cleared."

The current "meta" is DRK/WAR, SCH/AST, DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH. And there are PFs up there that follow that meta, and have those restrictions on their groups. So how is that less restrictive than the options "cleared" or "haven't cleared"?

Also worth noting that, before Raid Finder, the newest Ex primals could only be queued for with a full group, no solo queue. And that was with them in Duty Finder. Seems pretty restrictive...



Personally, I wouldn't mind if everything was in Duty Finder, and Party Finder had the options from Raid Finder added to the ones already there. If people have no preference on if veterans or newbies join their PFs because they either just want to do a clear or teach, then they don't have to set either restriction, or they can set for both. If people just want to get those together who have cleared the duty for swift, easy farming, then they should be able to do so. If a group just wants 8 new people to jump into a primal completely blind for the sole excitement of not knowing what to expect, then they should be able to do so.

Forcing players together that have different goals is just asking for trouble. Because some will not want explanations of the fight (they would prefer to be surprised). Some want to kill the boss as fast as possible so that they can requeue again (solo-farming). Some people want in-depth explanations of mechanics/strategies, or a slow progression of a fight, and a 60-90 minute time frame may not be adequate time to give them what they want. Just look at Leveling Roulette: people end up in a duty completely new, or at level for it, and want a complete understanding of the duty, or a complete clear. Those people are also sometimes paired with people that have everything to 60, and want to get in and get out as fast as possible, collect their tomes, and be done. The two groups usually end up clashing, with one (or both) leaving. MSQ Roulette is another example: if you want to watch the cutscenes in Castrum or Praetorium, well, be prepared to be left behind by the other people, because they won't wait. They want to get and get out.

I like the way the JP data centers do things: PF is for clearing content or learning content, and DF is for when you are ready to comfortably farm it. And it's not something that is "forced," but just an unwritten rule born out of respect and their culture (which tends to focus on the success/benefits of the entire group rather than just one individual). Unfortunately, western cultures tend to be about individual success and individual benefits, rather than collective.


ADDITION:

tools ? I like privacy in real life so I am also very protective over my in game character as well and dont have time for nonsense in a video game. Especially if all that can be done is verbal arguments over a screen so whats the point.

Uhm. If you don't have time for "nonsense" or "verbal arguments over a screen," then why do you continue to post in this thread?

And with regards to character, okay, that's fine. But I could go to the Lodestone right now, and look up your character. Because your character's name is posted publicly on this forum just like it is in duties, be them through Duty Finder, Raid Finder, or Party Finder. And no one is asking for you to disclose personal details like your real-life gender, where you live, how old you are, etc., or tell us your life story. I don't understand this argument. I really don't.

Because there's no way for us to know these personal details about you unless you disclose them, and, again, I don't see anyone asking you to do that. I've never even been asked what my real-life gender is in-game, or how old I am. The most I've been asked is: "What country are you from?" I know there are crazy stalker-ish players out there, but I really think that they are few and far between. Most people aren't going to come up to you and demand to know your life story.

[Vidu]

(just a quick note on being anonym in PvP: you arent - at the end of the duty it will show everyone your name, server and in a sense even how well you did - including the amount of healing you did, damage you dealt, damage you took; how many people you killed, how often you were killed and how many support-kills you have; in cases when there are objectives it will also tell everyone how well you did on them, as in how many towers you took, for example)

Edit: But I ofc totally agree on the farm-option for the DF - sadly all those people who are against it have shown us why its not already working outside of JP data centers...

[Vnolan]

Any chance of the community sorting out this selfish behavior?

Queued for a few EX primals and AS (can't do that with RF). Got Thor EX. Upon entry, some of the bonuses commented on how players didn't want to be paired with them despite the changes just being made. I mentioned that xpf had been around for a few months. Their response? They didn't see any learning parties. I gave up all hope of completing the instance at that point, even before the first pull.

Tank pulls with no countdown and we wipe on the first dps check because what are mechanics (you know, the ones present in the story mode version)? After the first wipe, someone spends at least five minutes explaining the fight up to the two knights. We wipe some more on the dps check due to towers but eventually reach meteors, though most of the party is dead at the start of the phase. Party abandons. The end.

Instead of watching a 10-20 min video guide done by someone experienced in explaining mechanics and then creating a PF listing for individuals in the same situation, they decide to just queue up in DF and expect other players to explain the fights/carry them.

The devs could step in, but why not deal with it ourselves? Make it an unwritten rule that you don't queue with DF for HW EX primals not named Rav or Bis, or most of AS if you aren't at the final phase and you especially don't queue if have no experience and have not watched a guide.

[Vidu]

The devs could step in, but why not deal with it ourselves? Make it an unwritten rule that you don't queue with DF for HW EX primals not named Rav or Bis, or most of AS if you aren't at the final phase and you especially don't queue if have no experience and have not watched a guide.

On japanese servers it actually that way (at least from what I hear) - you use PF to learn and then DF to clear. Western world has decided that we want to do it the other way round.
And frankly - I'm fine with having both at the same time. Something, the RF (or DF with the "clear-option") would provide.
If you want to use DF to learn the fight - its cool, you can queue up for "learning".
If you want to use DF to farm the fight - cool, you can do that too, because the queue will be seperated from those people who still need to get their clear.
If either of those queues is really slow, the person in question can do and make a PF.

Fair for everyone, isnt it?
(Except that people here dont like the idea of someone not having to help newbies...)

[Brill_]

On japanese servers it actually that way (at least from what I hear) -

There's a lot more to it then where they learn. This thread has some good insight on it.