Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

There's a lot more to it then where they learn. This thread has some good insight on it.

Well, thanks for the insight, I only glanced over it though, because I'm not sure how its relevant to the discussion at hand. The main things I got from this are that japanese people are betting more on fail-safe-strategies instead of trying to push everything to the limit (as in: solo-tank and solo-heal Zurvan EX for example) and that they're more willing to recover than western people who just start blaming each other.

The second thing I kinda got from this (and from my knowlegde about the japanese schoolsystem) is: Slowest person dictates the speed of a run - and everyone is cool with it (just like they are in schools, until a certain age, before they start putting kids through a hell of extra classes, but lets keep this aside for a moment).
Now, that is, ofc, a very noble cause and way of thinking - and maybe something that will never truely work in western culture.
And maybe the question I'm going to ask now is prove that as a german person I'm to self-absorb or something like that, but anyways: How much are you expected to slow down? Do you go from 10 minute clears to 15 minute clears? Or to 2 or 3 wipes because one person cant handle mechanics? Or to 60 minutes and no clear at all? Are we explaining the crucial new mechanics of a fight - or do we start with "there will be AoEs on the ground, dodge them!"? Do we feed them neat little tips and tricks how to optimise their rotation - or do we ask the bard to use WM and the dragoon to keep heavy thrust up?
Where do we draw the line to accommodate to the slowest person - and at what point do we say "I'm really sorry, but I dont think you're fit for this content yet"?

Maybe we have less patience and understanding than the japanese playerbase - but honestly, I was in this Sophia EX-run a few nights ago (mentioned that before) and even after being told several times two people still didnt manage to turn around from the second demigurg when she casts the eye-mechanic. Same with the thing when you have to get behind the third one to avoid his 270° AoE. And those people didnt show that they were aware of doing something wrong - not even after being told. So thats the second problem we're having here: not enough self-reflection and the ability to spot our own mistakes and be sorry for them (another thing that is big in japan).

Since we wont fundamentally change our culture (which I personally consider a good thing), lets do the best we can and seperate two groups of people who dont go well together because they're holding each other back.

[Yeol]

The devs could step in, but why not deal with it ourselves? Make it an unwritten rule that you don't queue with DF for HW EX primals not named Rav or Bis, or most of AS if you aren't at the final phase and you especially don't queue if have no experience and have not watched a guide.

It is an unwritten role in JP data centers.

DF is for those who want to farm the content.
PF is for training after the content is added to DF.
RF was used for farming and trining depending on the options selected.

They aslo use a lot of macros, signs and numbers for positions if needed.
And prefer to follow safe starts rather than speed run content with high risk.

Wish we do the same in NA/EU.

[bswpayton]

The thing is my view isn't all that different from u guys like I've said. In my experience I have clearly learned that come storm blood to be on time. Do things when it's current. The problem with this game is to do end game, u must bomb rush the story which I personally hate but will do for moree challenging content. I'm willing to do this myself because I see the face of the community you as a player don't dictate how you play the game your either at the will of the community or the will of the devs.

It's acceptance that everyone has to do the most, that being said I agree there is a time for such boundaries on content there is a reason why zur is still in rf. There's an understanding that the new primals will be there as well. New players and returning players come to this game daily I see it on nn all the time as a mentor.

If those players have to deal with certain things then so does everyone else. It's one of those welcome to the Club things , SE felt like this content was old enough to be put in df. Just like someone looking for a clear has to put some effort in now those whom have had their exclusive filter all this time will have to go through the necessary steps to filter out their farm parties.

Filters fine when it's farm season, but we are now two months from an expansion jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs. It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease? When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care, and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here ,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them. It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last. Everyone can't be pleased at once and I'm pretty sure SE knows that so they do the best they can to get around to everyone's wishes. You guys have had great experiences with rf , Ive had great experiences on df it was pretty much my only way to ever have gotten any sync clears on the old arr primals.

Otherwise it all would of been unsync like all my friends where doing so in my experience df has proven to work. In your experience raid finder works wonders in mine it was just a waste of time and I didnt see the good things about the feature and its a shared experience because its several post on it being useless to players.

So there is a divide here whats SE to do exactly what they just did have rf be the standard with its filter for six months, and give those whom prefer df there two months before the content is no longer relevant. I dont see how this is unfair in the slightest, but Im sure you guys will find some way to think it is, if you dont wana be with noobs then dont que its just that simple.

It is not possible to please both parties at the same time, so image its just like your with a sibling you get to ride the swing first and they get to ride it second both get to ride the swing shouldnt be any argument here.

[Vidu]

Filters fine when it's farm season, but we are now two months from an expansion jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs. It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease? When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care, and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here ,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them. It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last. Everyone can't be pleased at once

Did you not understand anything we said here when you pulled this argument before?
Do I have to tell you again?
DF was always open for everyone - now its closed for farm people.
This does NOT make it easier for new people to get their clears - it just makes it more difficult for farmers to get their birds. If it makes it easier for new people to get their kills, its bought with the time and nerves of those who still want to use the DF to farm and roll the dice.

You are always able to "enjoy" the DF (or RF) - if there are filters, they are used by people to make this content more enjoyable for them. Removing the filter does excatly one thing: People who want to farm dont have the gurantee anymore to be paired up with like minded people. And are put into parties with newbies with potentially very different levels of experience. Its not helping!

It is very possible to please both parties at the same time - by giving them equal treatment, as I suggested before. If one party can only be pleased at the cost of the other party, that party needs to reviste their attitude. If newbies are only please when experience people (unwillingly) sacrifice their freetime in a game to help them to clear content, something is wrong with those newbies, I'm sorry.

You're asking us to "just let the people who want to clear this to have it" - but what are they having, excatly?
Either the same queue they had before OR a queue with people in it who'd rather not be there. In their freetime. In a video game.
And you're telling me thats okay and fair? You're telling me we should just let them have the time of a person who'd rather spend that time in a different way - you're indeed very gracious when it comes to other peoples time...

The reason people feel like RF didnt work are the following:
1) People didnt know about it - easly fixed by moving the filter-option to the DF or raising more awareness for the RF
2) People didnt queue for the content because it was already to old - most likely the case for anything before Sophia EX. RF was released together with that fight, so she was the new hot shit in there, that everyone wanted to do - it worked really, really well for that fight, as many people have stated here. Thordan, Nidhogg, Sephi - all of them were released before and its very likely that a good amount of people was already done with them, both clear and farm-wise.
3) People dont queue for the content because they prefer a different set-up than the standard-one - currently the case with Zurvan EX and the solo-tank strat.

Ultimatly both DF and RF fail when not enough people are intrested in said content. But its really not cool to go to one group and say "Hey, listen, we'd like you to just forgot what you actually wanted to do and do what they want to do, because we consider them more important"

I mean, what you are basically saying right now is "People who want to get clears now are screwed, thats really unfair - but I have an idea how to make it fair: lets screw everyone else too!"

We will be in the same situation in SB again if we dont tell the devs "Hey, we actually like tha farm-option in DF, it was a good idea, keep it, please!"

Its not siblings riding a swing - its your mom telling you that you have to take your little brother to the football-game that you want to win and you know you'll lose if you take him. You're taking him every other day, but today, you really want to win and he will be in the way - also, his friends are coming over in 10 minutes to play with him, but NO! he wants to play with his cool older brother now - and mom says you have to take him with you!
Except you're paying mom to give you the football already... and its your freetime... and you really didnt wanted a freaking younger brother (...sorry, getting to personal here right now).

[Dualgunner]

Do things when it's current. The problem with this game is to do end game, u must bomb rush the story which I personally hate but will do for moree challenging content.

It's easiest to do things when it's current, but it's nowhere near impossible if you're late to the party. (and I stand by it being less possible in the bog standard df queue) I remember the days when the new primal didn't even HAVE a non-full party queue--at least with RF that queue existed for people just wanting to give it a solo shot.

It's acceptance that everyone has to do the most

What are you even saying here? It's a game, nobody is mandated to do anything.

that being said I agree there is a time for such boundaries on content there is a reason why zur is still in rf. There's an understanding that the new primals will be there as well. New players and returning players come to this game daily I see it on nn all the time as a mentor.

New players are here every day. Players who haven't cleared X (where X = Primal EX of your choosing) outnumber players who have. As I asked before, how does filtering out the minority who have cleared inhibit the people who haven't from queueing together?

If those players have to deal with certain things then so does everyone else.

I was born with a cleft lip. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I broke my arm. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I busted my eardrum in from pressure changes caused by diving. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I got booted from Haukke HM back when it was current because my dps was low. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

I have to deal with someone who thinks suffering some endure should be endured by all. If I had to deal with it so should everyone else.

Several FCs have had their chests emptied out by trolls who abuse the FC privilege system. If they had to deal with it so should everyone else, because as you say Payton,

welcome to the Club

Just like someone looking for a clear has to put some effort in now those whom have had their exclusive filter all this time will have to go through the necessary steps to filter out their farm parties.

Both have always had to put in effort. I remember being in PF every single day with new learning parties every single day to try and beat Sephirot. But I also remember this was before raid finder, and thus this was also before I had any sort of option TO queue solo, since before raid finder (and this filter you hate so bad) there was literally NO way to queue solo for the newest boss.

Filters fine when it's farm season

If you can just declare farm season over, I can just declare learning season over. The people who were queueing in RF Cleared are not suddenly going to be joining DF blindly. You look at it as "Good they finally have to do the work" but I see it as "Well taking those duties out of RF has helped absolutely nobody."

Let's also remember that the people who haven't cleared are the majority here. RF only filtered out a minority of people who have cleared. And of that "has cleared" minority, not all of them used RF anyway so a fraction of a minority. But again, if you suffered so should everybody else ever.

but we are now two months from an expansion

Oh you mean PRIME TIME to farm everything left in this expansion in prep for SB? It's time to get Stormblood ready that means cleaning up any farms you have left, tackling any final challenges Heavensward has left and prepping raid groups for Bend of Time if you or your fc are so inclined.

Also known as "farm season". But no that's over. Newbies are resigned to DF hell and the few that want definite practice will go to PF as they always have anyway. I should also mention that 2 months is about $30 per person.

jump through the same hoops as those still looking to get their first clear what makes your need more important than theirs.

Nothing, but this was what they had to go through ANYWAY. Both cleared and not-cleared had the option of PF and always have. RF allowed uncleared to queue in on their own in the first place. The fact it also allowed a minority of the playerbase to queue on their own was just a bonus.

It's not easy learning stuff late, so why should farmers have things with ease?

Translation: Some suffer, so all should suffer.

When they have had plenty of time coasting without a care

See it's funny you say you share an opinion for the most part with veterans but you say crap like this. NOBODY has coasted without a care. First gen had to learn fights from scratch. Second gen had to pick up the first gen's journals and figure it out from there. Third gen had to do the same, and then fourth and fifth and now we're at Xth gen and you're complaining that (X-Y)th gen had it easy? Get out of here with that garbage.

and with their almighty skills an abilities because they can carry a whole group according to everyone here

You're right, they can't. So why are you asking people to?

"I'm not, I just want queue times to work!"

Sure, great. Again, by pulling a minority group back in with the crowd. How does it help? It doesn't.

,gettin 99 tomes should of came with ease for them.

99 *anything* isn't easy. 99 A1S isn't *easy*. It's grueling, it's time consuming, it's painful to push yourself through, even moreso when you have to ask every time if someone in the group will turn what should be a 3 min and done instance into bloody 90 minutes because they couldn't be ASSED to look up a guide.

It's only temporary it's not gona last long rf will be back to normal soon enough u could say it hasn't even changed with zur still in it now.

And, as has been pointed out before (I think it was Vidu?), you and others are advocating for RF to be shut down completely.

So let those whom enjoy the df with no filters now enjoy this while it last.

Why? We're suffering now and so should they. In fact let's follow your logic through to the end and just shut servers down until SB launches, because it's just two months anyway.

Oh yeah, that'd be effing insane. People who enjoy DF, go ahead and enjoy it, just don't go under the illusion DF is any different than RF Uncleared.

Everyone can't be pleased at once

People who are pleased at the misery of others should never be happy.

You guys have had great experiences with rf ,

You wanna know the absolute funniest part of all this? My only experience with RF was using it to learn Sophex from the ground up and farming her for a bit with it. I should also mention I didn't get into the swing of RF until a week prior to XPF so I was late to the party. Anecdotal? Sure but so far that's all you provided.

Ive had great experiences on df it was pretty much my only way to ever have gotten any sync clears on the old arr primals.

I'm glad you enjoy DF. You know what else is on DF besides primals? Everything else in the game. Even EX Roulette, and if you go onto any FB group even once everybody is always crying because of the lack of group filtering, hardcores being put with casuals raising issues of "I play how I want it's my sub."

Otherwise it all would of been unsync like all my friends where doing so in my experience df has proven to work.

Anecdotal. My experience with RF has proven to work too. Wanna know the difference? None, because RF uncleared *is* DF, and RF Cleared is DF with an added filter. That's ALL.

In your experience raid finder works wonders in mine it was just a waste of time and I didnt see the good things about the feature and its a shared experience because its several post on it being useless to players.

And it's also a shared experience of it being useful to players given everybody arguing with you.

A
NEC
DOT
AL.

So there is a divide here whats SE to do exactly what they just did have rf be the standard with its filter for six months, and give those whom prefer df there two months before the content is no longer relevant.

Content's still relevant and as you said, DF synched still works for irrelevant ARR primals so it would work for irrelevant HW primals just as well in SB.

I dont see how this is unfair in the slightest, but Im sure you guys will find some way to think it is,

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but my answer would normally be "because you hate solo queuers, you don't see how it's not fair. You also see some sort of benefit that isn't there at all."

if you dont wana be with noobs then dont que its just that simple.

That's what will happen, and that's how DF will be even more dead than anyone claims RF to be.

It is not possible to please both parties at the same time, so image its just like your with a sibling you get to ride the swing first and they get to ride it second both get to ride the swing shouldnt be any argument here.

It's more like there are two swings, but the little sibling wants to sit in your lap while you swing. You don't want that so mom comes out and cuts your swing down so you and your brother *have* to use the same swing at the same time.

[HyoMinPark]

Found this while browsing reddit.
Really wish this could be the case with NA/EU data centers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_data_center/

[Vidu]

Found this while browsing reddit.
Really wish this could be the case with NA/EU data centers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_data_center/

I love how this turns into "please, please try to communicate with them in their language" like half-way through - something that should be common sense in my book...
...and then I remembered all those german and french people on NA/EU datacenters refusing to learn (most of the germans that I ran into who didnt speak english were also unwilling to learn it at all and kept speaking german, leading to me saying everything in german AND english with an apology for the english people around, because it seems so rude >.<) or speak (I've seen sooo many french people who didnt said so much as "hi" but instead went with "salut" - but were magically able to speak english after the third wipe and them wanting an explantion now) english and see nothing wrong with that...

So yeah, the reason this isnt working is pretty much a lack of mutual respect on both sides - and I think we got a very good representation of it in this thread with all those people saying "No, you should not have your farm/clear-option back, because you wont queue up to teach first timers anymore!"
This could work - if we didnt had a lot of people thinking that a first time blind run experience is so, so much more important that its okay to screw everyone else over. If people wouldnt join farm-parties when they still havent cleared this content. Maybe also with veterans helping more and all of us making macros to quickly explain fights (Hey, I just rememberd: I have macros like that for CT ).
But you know why farm-people are so "me, me, me, no time to help, no time to waste"? Because we brought everyone up like this - by telling the new person "YOU are the most important one here! All those people here - they're just here to help you achieve your goal, whatever that may be!" - and thats obviously going to stick.

I doubt we can change that now - specially because this is most likely much more than just a video game issue xD

So I say the best we can do is. Seperate those who want fast kills from those who want to learn and teach - and give us the tools to filter out those who dont respect the wishes of other people. A new person joining a farm party (without asking for permission) is excatly that: disrespectful - and the excuse cant be "But... but... there were no learning parties, if they want to do the fight, they had to!"

[HyoMinPark]

@Vidu: Oh no, that would never work on NA/EU data centers. I'm fully aware of that. XD Because most people only think about their needs and what they want, compared to the group. There is also more lack of respect from NA/EU players usually, because we tend to think "me, me, me" and whine when we don't get our way. Which is how most cultures teach us to behave as we grow up, so it's not surprising. Granted, not all of us are that selfish (and being a little selfish sometimes is just human nature, perfectly normal and acceptable), but probably not compared to those that are exceedingly selfish (just based on the posts I've read on here and on reddit).

So yeah, I am all for giving players the options to filter their groups, be it in Duty Finder or Party Finder or wherever. Even those who haven't cleared can choose to "exclude" those that have (ya know, if they want to be in a group with 7 other people and be completely surprised), so that would make it "fair," since both groups would have options to "exclude."

Honestly, I think it's unrealistic and somewhat ridiculous to expect to PUG a piece of content (let's use A11S as an example) having never cleared it, and just a.) expect the veterans/those who have cleared to help/carry you even though they are there to farm the content for gear/pages, b.) expect them to be okay if you don't want "spoilers" or explanations of mechanics (I have met a surprising amount of people who don't want "spoilers" for fights), or c.) expect to even clear the Duty within the time frame provided.

Party Finder is there for everyone to use: veterans, mentors, newbies, returning players...EVERYONE. But some have got to learn that, if there's no PF for whatever piece of content you want to learn/clear/farm, to take initiative and make one yourself. If you want something done, it's best to do it yourself. And to not force your wants or desires (be it learning/clear/farm) on a group of 7 others that may or may not share them. That's what I think.

[Vidu]

@Vidu: Oh no, that would never work on NA/EU data centers. I'm fully aware of that. XD

Oh, I never doubted that you would be aware of that, Hyomin xD You seem way to reasonable and aware of the problems regarding this matter for that. So my "explantion" was more directed towards anyone who fails to see that japanese people are asking both sides to consider the needs of the other one - and we just dont do that on either side. I dont even want to judge if thats better or worse - its different.
Japanese people have found their way of dealing with it - including for example their special, public blacklist.
And we need to find ours - and I'd consider filter-options the best version, allowing everyone to always use all tools to find a group.
Reading about how people who'd want to exclude people who already have the kill I could think about having these three options:
- Just queue with no filters - always open to everyone
- Queue with "no clear" selected - pairs you up with people who also havent cleared yet, only open as long as you havent got the clear, once you have it, you cant tick it anymore
- Queue with "clear" selected - only open once you've got the clear

...maybe the "no clear"-option would be useless because not enough people would actually be intrested in doing the fight without having the chance of vets sneaking in and teaching them... but thats saying something, doesnt it?

On the matter how PUGable (is that a word? Geez, I love how I can just make up words in german and its totally legit...) content is:
I feel the problem here is the difficulty-gap between content - we're able to just queue and stumble blindly into basically every content except EX-primals and Savage. While EX-primals and Savage really, really require you to know your shit. Having this content in DF sends a wrong message - the message that this is content that can be cleared by 8 random people with various levels of experience. The message that you can just queue for it right after you've unlocked it - and I can understand why a new person who just unlocked their first EX-primal would blindley queue up for it: Thats what they've learned. "Oh, I have unlocked something new, lets do this!" - when thats really not the case and not working. I dont think that we need to encourage the idea that EX-primals and Savage are clearable (another word!) - quite the opposite, actually! Because what happens when a fight cant be cleared by newbies within 60/90 minutes? People start crying for nerfs - "This is to difficult, I cant clear this! Change it! NERF! NERF!"
In this very moment there is a thread on the frontpage, asking for Edda - level 50 boss in PotD - to be changed because people cant handle a very simple mechanic... when the person whos complaining is being told "Well, go with friends/PF when you dont want to risk wasting your time with pugs" the response is "But there are people who have no friends and dont want to socialise!"
So yeah, as soon as something is in DF the expectation is that you can clear it with PUGs - and while thats true for all normal content, for the content thats supposed to be a challenge its not... but the game isnt telling you that

Personal sidenote about how japanese people bet on safer strats and wont solo-tank Zurvan EX for example... or dont tank-LB the soar and just do the mechanic:
As a MT, I like that I get to handle wave canon on my own or that I get to LB - it requires me to pay attention and actually do something for a change (maintanking is pretty dull, easy and boring most of the time...).
Trying if new things could work aswell to handle a mechanic, even if that might be a bit risky, isnt as horrible as those reddit-threads made it seem... I mean, its not as if NA/EU-players would be to stupid to step into the wave canong - they just found a second way to deal with it... and maybe one thats a bit more risky, but also a little more creative...

[Alistaire]

Alternatively they could just add a checkmark to duty finder to only queue with people who have cleared it, that'd solve this problem just as well.