Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Dualgunner]

snip

Sure we can call it elitism, but we wouldn't be honest about doing so--we would be using a false definition of elitism. There is nothing wrong with grouping players differently based on their goals. People who want to farm should not be forced into the same queue as people who want to learn, and people who want to learn shouldn't be pushed along by players who want to get in and get out just to get back in again. Look at MSQ Roulette: people HATE getting dragged along through a fight/dungeon at hyper speeds and not learning anything interesting just because everyone else already knows it. and as has been said PF should be for learning where DF is for farming anyway.

I'm also glad you work long hours and can pull 12 hours a day still somehow (when do you sleep?). People who have that much time can *EASILY* learn the extreme fights with others who want to learn. Can't find any? Make your own! If you already have cleared it and/or farmed it to your heart's content, use your amazing 12 hours a day alongside nursing to host teaching parties, where you gather a group of people who have cleared for the specific purpose of teaching new people how to clear the content!

But don't look down on your peers and sneer at them, pretending they're sneering at what you consider their lowers because they aren't omnibenevolent players who have 12 hours a day to waste away and want to get specific things done--including farming fights that they themselves bled, sweated, and cried learning among peers who did likewise alongside them.

[Feidam]

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Umm I didn't say I worked long hours then played 12 hours. I used my job as a point to those who use the but my time is important argument. I was trying to point out that everyone's time is equally important. I also wasn't sneering at anyone or looking down on them. However, if you can not see how exclusion is an elitist practice there is not much to continue to talk about. Also, as to your letting like minded people group together I am all for that. Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

[aleph_null]

The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

Why though? It's simpler and most likely faster than having to make a PF, wait for people to join, and in the end you still have to open DF/RF and queue. I see it as a QOL feature for quick farm.

[Feidam]

Why though? It's simpler and most likely faster than having to make a PF, wait for people to join, and in the end you still have to open DF/RF and queue. I see it as a QOL feature for quick farm.

Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally. So it really doesn't matter much to my play time. I however am not blind to others plight trying to do said content because they didn't play or were not able to the content the first week it was launched.

[Dualgunner]

Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

It's also not fair that tanks queue faster than dps. It should be equal for any person utilizing the duty finder.

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally.

Why not spend your time in party finder joining clear parties or making teaching parties then? You'd be killing two birds with one stone: doing your primals *and* helping the next generation needing their clear get through the EX primal.

[aleph_null]

Exactly.nice simple easy fast way to do "X". Unless you have not cleared. Then good luck getting anything to pop. That's the point. It should be equal time for any person utilizing the raid finder.

Extreme primals are all I really do now days personally. So it really doesn't matter much to my play time. I however am not blind to others plight trying to do said content because they didn't play or were not able to the content the first week it was launched.

I've explained in a previous post, practice and farm queues won't work together for some fights. Maybe you can carry some newbies through sophia or zurvan, but I really doubt it's even possible to clear something like thordan, a6s, a7s, a11s, a12s in 90 minutes while teaching/carrying a newbie who's new to the fight, even when they're at/above the ilv requirements. I think at least for current contents the clear and practice queues should be separated. If you combine those queues together some contents will quite literally be impossible to clear via DF/RF, which isn't exactly better than having two separate, slower queues which may take very long to pop.

Back in 3.1 it took me over a month to clear thordan ex, so it's not like I don't understand how it feels to be left behind. I sometimes help people in practice or aim to clear parties as well, either premade groups with fc/ls friends or randomly joining PF, but when I do, I keep in mind that there's a pretty good chance I won't clear the fight. When I want to farm for gear/birds/whatever of course I wouldn't want to be grouped with people who are still practicing early phases, or aren't consistent enough to execute the mechanics to clear. It's not a matter of clearing slower, it's a matter of actually clearing vs not. If there's only a single RF queue for those harder fights it'll be pretty much useless since you won't clear it there. It'll be an unofficial "first phase practice queue" so people who want to farm won't use it anyway. Heck, even with a completed queue some of the harder fights were still a challenge to clear, where groups disband after 2-3 pulls and you just requeue. There are contents where you can teach and carry newbies, and there are contents where you can't.

[Dualgunner]

Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

I apologize for misunderstanding your example. However I stand by party finder being a far better tool for learning than DF ever will be, as described by some people in the page 4 on the default comments per page format. It's easier to get people in voice, or coordinated specifically to learn in PF, while in DF you're paired with random people and not guaranteed anything.

If everyone in the df knows what they're doing and are there for a farm, then little to no communication is required. Everyone's in, does their role and follows mechanics, and is out. Just like DF dungeons.

Like I said, discrimination is not bad. It's not a bad thing to filter out players based on end goals. This is also for the people wanting to learn too. MSQ Roulette is a shining example of people who want to learn getting their experience ruined by veterans rushing the content because of their "get in get rewarded get out" mentality. Though I'll respect your position and agree to disagree, but that really is center to this whole conversation.