Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Feidam]

snip

And this is why one has the party finder. If they added this to the party finder no harm no foul. But the raid finder like the duty should be open to everyone. Not a tool for others to avoid new clears. I mean folks are already are using the new clears are lazy form a party finder group then here in your own post you detail why some players don't /can't.

Let's be honest here this is simply a form a of elitism. I have seen just as many new clears perform equally or better than the already cleared. However, people would rather talk down to a new clear or bad mouth them all together than actually see if they are any good. Now I'm not accusing anyone of being an elitist jerk please don't take it that way. just in the automated finder meant for everyone having the ability to lock a subset of players out is in fact elitism.

And for all the people posting what about my time!? It is important! I just want you step back and realize everyone's time is important. Period. This argument is ridiculous. I'm a nurse. I work very long hours. Does this mean my time is more important that someone who works 8hrs a day? When I can easily pull 12hrs a day? So unless we are going to start giving out ratings to players based on what is going on in their non game life the time argument needs to stop.

[aleph_null]

Raid finder was (probably) meant to help less populated servers by allowing them to queue to raids and ex trials with players from other servers (they were introduced before cross server PF), and it was kinda successful, many of my friends got their first clears via RF in midas and creator savage. I never got a first clear via RF but I've farmed a5s-a7s and a9s-a12s using it. The separation by early/late phase practice, aim to clear and farm (weekly clear) is imo necessary because of the difficulty (it's very unlikely that you can teach someone who's learning the first phase to be able to execute the whole fight in a single lockout of 90 minutes) and weekly loot restriction (completion queue makes sure all 8 people in the group have not cleared for that week).

[Serilda]

Um, this might be a stupid question, but is there any reason not to have both? Move it to DF, but leave content in RF too so the leader can just pick where to queue? Or even better, just add an extra checkbox to DF and avoid the extra layer of complication entirely?

[Dualgunner]

snip

Sure we can call it elitism, but we wouldn't be honest about doing so--we would be using a false definition of elitism. There is nothing wrong with grouping players differently based on their goals. People who want to farm should not be forced into the same queue as people who want to learn, and people who want to learn shouldn't be pushed along by players who want to get in and get out just to get back in again. Look at MSQ Roulette: people HATE getting dragged along through a fight/dungeon at hyper speeds and not learning anything interesting just because everyone else already knows it. and as has been said PF should be for learning where DF is for farming anyway.

I'm also glad you work long hours and can pull 12 hours a day still somehow (when do you sleep?). People who have that much time can *EASILY* learn the extreme fights with others who want to learn. Can't find any? Make your own! If you already have cleared it and/or farmed it to your heart's content, use your amazing 12 hours a day alongside nursing to host teaching parties, where you gather a group of people who have cleared for the specific purpose of teaching new people how to clear the content!

But don't look down on your peers and sneer at them, pretending they're sneering at what you consider their lowers because they aren't omnibenevolent players who have 12 hours a day to waste away and want to get specific things done--including farming fights that they themselves bled, sweated, and cried learning among peers who did likewise alongside them.

[Nalfein]

Um, this might be a stupid question, but is there any reason not to have both? Move it to DF, but leave content in RF too so the leader can just pick where to queue? Or even better, just add an extra checkbox to DF and avoid the extra layer of complication entirely?

I was wondering as well when i rode that thread today.

[Feidam]

snip

Umm I didn't say I worked long hours then played 12 hours. I used my job as a point to those who use the but my time is important argument. I was trying to point out that everyone's time is equally important. I also wasn't sneering at anyone or looking down on them. However, if you can not see how exclusion is an elitist practice there is not much to continue to talk about. Also, as to your letting like minded people group together I am all for that. Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

[Feidam]

I was wondering as well when i rode that thread today.

This could work too.

[aleph_null]

The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

Why though? It's simpler and most likely faster than having to make a PF, wait for people to join, and in the end you still have to open DF/RF and queue. I see it as a QOL feature for quick farm.

[Dualgunner]

Use the party finder. The automated raid finder should not have the ability to exclude people beyond the fact they do not meet the required gear score.

I apologize for misunderstanding your example. However I stand by party finder being a far better tool for learning than DF ever will be, as described by some people in the page 4 on the default comments per page format. It's easier to get people in voice, or coordinated specifically to learn in PF, while in DF you're paired with random people and not guaranteed anything.

If everyone in the df knows what they're doing and are there for a farm, then little to no communication is required. Everyone's in, does their role and follows mechanics, and is out. Just like DF dungeons.

Like I said, discrimination is not bad. It's not a bad thing to filter out players based on end goals. This is also for the people wanting to learn too. MSQ Roulette is a shining example of people who want to learn getting their experience ruined by veterans rushing the content because of their "get in get rewarded get out" mentality. Though I'll respect your position and agree to disagree, but that really is center to this whole conversation.

[KDSilver]

I don't know why some people talked about discrimination.

When we want to farm, we're expecting people to know the strategy, of course, cause we want some weapons or mount.
Why would players waste time make newbie learn again and again and never get clears?

(If I want to help new player, i'll go in a practise pf and tell them that i'm here to help)

Before farming it, these same players went in practise pf and such.
You go with people that are sharing the same goal as you, that is all...

It's simple to understand and totally logical.